Do as the US says, not as it does.

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Ugg, Oct 28, 2003.

  1. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #1
    Link



    He has been writing a series of articles for the Guardian about US economic policy both at home and abroad. This article is especially noteworthy. The IMF which is basically a tool of its largest donor has devastated many emerging economies through its "do as we say and not as we do policies".

    It is a powerful reminder that we are not a capitalistic democracy rather a socialistic republic. Admittedly we are one of the most capitalistic of the contenders but our successes lie in our socialist endeavors, not our capitalistic ones.
     
  2. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    Re: Do as the US says, not as it does.

    I like the link. He points out the importance of Government regulation and social programs in the maintenance and growth of the economic system. In a time when Republican spin has convinced many that anything to do with government is evil it is good to see someone talk of the vital role it plays.

    I would argue with you over your characterization of the US as a "socialistic republic." Last I knew socialism had to do with the social ownership of the means of production. I don't see much in the way of social ownership in any meaningful way in the US. What we do have is the legacy of some very successful social-democratic policies from the days of the New Deal and Great Society, but that is hardly the same thing.
     
  3. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    "Do as we say, not as we do" is the obvious implication when Bush says things like "peaceful nations don't pursue weapons of mass destruction" then asks congress for permission to develop nu-cu-lar bunker busters. Like the US doesn't have a WMD program or something.
     
  4. Code101 macrumors newbie

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    No socialism! You guys scare me. There are many Americans that would say over my cold dead body before they would let socialism in.

    This is why many Republicans such as myself and a majority of the rest of the nation are trying to cut education spending. It is going to support these thugs at our universitys that love the UN/EU way of life. The guy who wrote this can go over to Europe if he wants and practice socialism there. No one is keeping him here.

    Here in Utah, there is a big push for private schools where kids are taught to love America again as well as taught what the founding fathers really had in mind for this nation. It sure wasn't socialism. This push is working. In my home town alone, there has been 4 private schools open up in the last 3 years. 18% of the kids now have left the public schools to go to them. I'll be glad when they refund the tax people pay for schools. I quit state college and went to BYU, the biggest school in Utah and best of all, it's private. I actually felt like I was in America again when I went there.

    Capitalism is true freedom to have as much success and wealth as we want or be as poor as we want.
     
  5. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    Ah yes, the old (and very tired) love-it-or-leave-it argument.

    Funny that Republicans like you didn't take your own advice when Clinton was prez.;)
     
  6. Sayhey macrumors 68000

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    All this shows, Code101, is that you have a knee jerk reaction to the word "socialism." No, the founding fathers did not have socialism in mind when they wrote the constitution. One good reason that is true is because there was no socialist movement to speak of at the time. Socialism as a movement starts in the 19th century and has its roots not only in European history but also in US history. So you see, Ugg, doesn't have to go to Europe if he wants to promote socialism (something I've never seen him propose.)

    I'm glad you are having a wonderful time in BYU, but this topic has nothing to do with what public education is about. It is an amazing statement, by the way, to say that the majority of the people of the US are for cutting Public Education.

    If you truly believe that Capitalism = Freedom then perhaps a little refresher course in history and economics is in order. I would not propose that Capitalism means the absence of freedom, but that has occurred in many capitalist countries.
     
  7. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    you're using logic on a Factophobe.
     
  8. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    Sorry, couldn't help myself. I hope Ugg sees this stuff.
     
  9. Code101 macrumors newbie

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    And what are you? A Repubophobe
     
  10. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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  11. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    Code101, did you want to reply to any of the points I made?
     
  12. Code101 macrumors newbie

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    Well it sure does! The public education system in America is the engine behind all this crap! Parents pay taxes, an arm, a leg, a fee here and a fee there and then some for their kids to go to public school only to have them brainwashed into believing that Socialism is the way to go and that god doesn't exist. Basically, the traditional values that have been in this country since the beginning are being wiped out buy none other than our own government funded institutions. Why, "because we need diversity." What a crock!

    The person who wrote this little sad excuse of an article is from CU. I would say this is a good representation of our wonderful public universities and how they seek to destroy the American way. I love how all these ultra liberal thugs go overseas to spit their poison towards their country, in this case the UK. Kind of like the Ditsy Chicks.

    The thing is, my business will always follow the principles of capitalism. I'm very much a capitalist and so is the God blessed USA!!! The more push to get government out of out of our private businesses and corporations, the better! The more deregulation, the better. The more private property and less public property the better. Time to get the liberal iron fist out of the private affairs of America’s Private Citizens.
     
  13. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    Lol... your parenting skills are sorely lacking if your kids are brainwashed into socialism and atheism by sending them off to school. If your kids can't deal with hearing an opposing viewpoint to yours, how do you expect them to survive in the real world?

    Besides, you pay taxes to a school system whose actions you disagree with, and I pay taxes to a military whose actions I disagree with. How is that fundamentally any different? I long ago realized that I would never agree wholly how my tax dollars were spent.
     
  14. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    We obviously look to public education to accomplish different things. For instance, I don't want my money spent teaching others that God has ordained capitalism for the US. I would much rather it is spent teaching all the history of the US, not just the myths. I would like an educational system that teaches students about all religions, from the beliefs of ancient civilizations to those that are practiced now in every corner of the globe, with an eye to not trying to convert anyone to any of them. I would much rather that the ideas of capitalism be taught as ideas for critical review rather than holy doctrine that we must bow before or leave the country. In short, I want a educational system that teaches the critical thinking skills necessary to be a full fledged member of a democracy, not a mindless robot that parrots lines they do not understand. If you would rather have a different education in BYU that is, of course, up to you. But then, perhaps, I should not make the mistake of assuming your bias is the same as that university?
     
  15. Ugg thread starter macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    Stiglitz, if you're referring to him not me, is a Nobel prize winning economist who has taken a much needed critical look at the US approach to economics. It's a very revealing one and I would highly recommend that you read what he has to say. I don't agree with a lot of what he has to say but it is very eye opening and not merely regurgitated Rep/Dem party platforms.

    Many many countries have been founded throughout the centuries and no matter how great their founders were, the majority of them after a few hundred years rarely resemble what the founders envisioned. It's of course impossible to say what they would think of the US today but few of them were stupid and even fewer of them would expect the country to remain static for 200+ years. Is the US better today for its social welfare? IMO, emphatically yes. Only a hundred years ago we saw what rampant and uncontrolled capitalism would result in. It wasn't pretty and it shouldn't have to be repeated if we as a species are capable of learning from our mistakes.

    How's that adage go? Those that forget history are bound to repeat it.
     
  16. Sayhey macrumors 68000

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    A good thought to remember.
     
  17. pdham macrumors member

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    I cant believe someone who has an college education would even type something like that. Show me someone who excersied there "freedom" and then decided they wanted to be poor. If being poor must be an option for your definition of freedom, I dont know if I want part in that kind of freedom.

    As a side note to your founding fathers comment; many other writtings by the authors of the constitution show that they never inded it to last for more than 1 generation, it was meant to be a dynamic document that changed with the times. However, the way we have painted it infaliable means anyone who suggests major changes is considered un-American.

    Finally, I woud like to know what your major objection to socialism is (or Democratic-Welfarism as it is more properly called today). The main economic platform on which countries like
    Sweden, Norway and to some extent Germany are built on is; the rich give up more so the poor can have more. As a result povery is almost non-existent in Norway and Sweden, and Sweden has had 0% unemployment numerous times in the past decade. (I dont have numbers for Germany so I will refrain from comenting on them). This sounds anything but restrictive of personnal freedoms.

    The American system may seem to embody freedom for thsoe of us who can aford child-care, secondary education, health-care, etc, but rest assured, the people who cant afford to buy medication for their sick child that they have to leave home alone so they can go to work dont feel that free.
     
  18. Ugg thread starter macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    A report was issued this week that places Finland, a very democratic welfare oriented country in first place in regards to competitivenesss. Link the other contenders:

    As you can clearly see, with the exception of the US the top ten include the 5 nordic countries, renowned for their generous and effective state-subsidized socail benefits.

    I highly recommend that code101 read the article, it is very revealing and explodes some of the myths about the US and its world ranking.
     
  19. Code101 macrumors newbie

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    You can spin it any way you like. You call it Democratic-Welfarism, I call it Socialism. The word Socialism brings out what it really is, a wolf under a good mask.

    Democrats and Liberals like to make people think they are so much for the little guy. It's really about control. Liberals like to spin the word Socialism and make it sound nice, or politically correct kind of like you "Democratic-Welfarism." Give me a break!

    If it takes away money out of my pocket against my will just because I make more money, I don't have true freedom. Robinhood is stealing from the rich and the middle class. I feel bad for the poor but they have the freedom to live in a slum or get out and make some money. The sky is the limit in America. That's what America is all about. Keep the government out of private business and out of peoples pockets. There should be a flat tax on income only! That is the only way to make it fair.

    Socialism is really just a striped down version of Communism. Democrats like to sugar it all up by saying how much it will help people out. What it will really do is make it so everyone weather they work and add their fair share or not gets the same amount of money. It will make the government which is allready too big, even bigger. It will make everything owned buy the public and not private. It will kill off our Military. In the end our great nation will fall and be taken over buy the UN or some other world government full of thugs.

    Leave America alone and keep Socialism and all the other crazy ideas out!
     
  20. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

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    I can't believe people can think this way. It just boggles my mind.

    And American capitalism is just a stripped down version of fascism. What's your point? That a moderate approach to a radical idea must be radical?
     
  21. Sayhey macrumors 68000

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    Code101,

    you really ought to try and read something other than recycled rants of conservative AM radio commentators. There is so much in your post that has no semblance to any objective understanding of Socialism or "Democratic Welfarism" (read as social democratic social policies) or, for that matter, Capitalism, that is hard to know where to start.

    One thing you did get right is that it is all about "control." Unfortunately, you forget to apply your own standard to Capitalism. Under Capitalism the economic structures are controlled by those who own them. You can argue that is how it should be, but it is still about control. We have over the years made laws to limit that control through labor laws, health and safety regulation, antitrust laws, etc., but fundamentally the control still rests in the hands of those who own Capitalist enterprises. Much of what you despise is in reality not socialism, but social-democratic reforms that have enabled Capitalism to grow in the US into the most powerful economy in the world.

    Socialism is a system under which private ownership is substituted by social ownership (the people who produce the goods or services own them.) If you have a problem with that ok, but it has nothing to do with what liberals or Democrats are proposing.

    You also make a common mistake of ideologues to blur the distinctions between Capitalism and Democracy. They are not the same. Both Capitalist and Socialist societies can be democratic or they can both be authoritarian. It does little for an informed debate to perpetuate these kind of distortions.

    Lastly, Code101, I find your last sentence, "Leave America alone and keep Socialism and all the other crazy ideas out! " perhaps the most disturbing of all in its distortion. In this country there has been a long tradition of not trying to build walls to keep ideas out. While I know that there is an equally long history of trying to do what you are advocating (from the Alien & Sedition Acts to McCarthyism and fools like Anne Coutler) it is the willingness to discuss and where useful to embrace new ideas that best serves democracy.
     
  22. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #22
    Word meanings change, just as societies. What most folks look upon as socialism is the idea of taking from those who can afford it ("from each, according to his means") and giving to those regarded as being in need (To each, according to his needs). This is exemplified by the progressive rate of taxes on incomes.

    A natural emotional reaction to giving, according to needs, is that in today's world there are a number of people who appear to be able to work and earn their own way, but who manage--one way or another--to sponge off society.

    With the numerous laws for protection against pollution or other dangers, we have gotten more toward a situation of "You own it, but we'll tell you what and how you are allowed to do with it." This is more similar to facism than socialism.

    When one sees a general decline in the quality of governmental services (public education, border protection, etc.) at a time of rapidly increasing taxes at all levels of government (varying with time, of course), there is the loss of belief in the efficacy of "Big Gummint" that we're seeing.

    'Rat
     
  23. g5man macrumors newbie

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    #23
    This is by far one of the most interesting threads I have discovered here.

    The true measure of who is right or wrong is who the people vote for in the end. And the day that someone says that the public is too stupid to know who is right or wrong is the day that person will never advance his or her agenda.

    Democrats these days are much more conservative while Republicans are much more liberal. Case and point. Most Democrats voted for the war while Bush signed the biggest governmental budgets in history.

    I am not sure I agree with Code101 on all parts of the education debate. If you noticed I posted a thread some time ago regarding political leaning in colleges.http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43154

    Even though most college campuses are liberal they do not necessarily turn out liberal students.

    As far as Sweden I need to find the link but he standard of living there is fairly low compared to the rest of the world.
     
  24. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

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    #24
    That's funny. There was an article in this month's ESPN magazine about how all the Swedish hockey players are longing to go back to their homeland.

    They'll pass on America and the millions of dollars in contracts they could get for finishing their careers out here to go back to their frozen homeland. I guess that standard is okay enough for them.
     
  25. Ugg thread starter macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #25
    Link

    The above is a comparison of GDP and other figures taken from the CIA's world factbook. Sweden ranks at #15 in GDP but fairly high in some of the other categories. This chart makes no subjective comparisons about living standards but is merely a bunch of regurgitated numbers.

    One aspect of living standards is health care and according to the following:

    Link

    Your faith in our living standard supremacy is unfounded. Money is not the only # that determines quality of life.
     

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