Do or Die for Apple in July ...

Discussion in 'Hardware Rumors' started by Recoil, May 15, 2002.

  1. Recoil macrumors newbie

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    May 15, 2002
    #1
    AMD is going to come out with there new hammer chip sets in october . They will have PCI-X ,AGP 8x ,Hypertransport tunnels running thoughout the board running dual 2Ghz . It will be 30% faster clock for clock then current AMD chips with a PR rateing of 3400 . I do digital audio and macs just can't keep up with PC anymore in DSP . It's going to be a sad day when I have to boot up windows XP because apple can't get there speeds up . Mhz does mean something "It's not everything but it still counts" .
    If apple want's more then 5% of the market then they need to do more . Sad how long has ddr been out? How long has ATA100 been out? Now apple just came out with it on there 3.5k servers. Sorry but that is not going to WIN people over to apple.

    I have hope that apple will do something with moto . I just won't pay 3k for a computer that is 2 years behind AMD .

    I will give apple until july to to change there view on power users. People in the digital audio world are looking at AMD very hard and most of the people I know have already moved over to AMD chips and are very happy with it .

    I'm not trolling . I own a G4 500mhz and love it . It has made me alot of money . I just want apple to show up to the game in july or AMD will get my money from now on. do or die.
     
  2. arn macrumors god

    arn

    Staff Member

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    #2
    In a lot of ways you're right...

    and Apple seems to be aware of it... I think in their financial results conference they mentioend that a lot of pro users were waiting to upgrade...

    The problem is that it's not entirely up to Apple. Motorola has to increase the capabilities on their G4's...

    That being said, processor speed isn't everything... and I think Apple's current plan along with Mac OS X seems to be a very appealing solution.

    arn
     
  3. Geert macrumors 6502a

    Geert

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    .be
    #3
    If it were a dual G4 you had I would have bought it for a fair price, so you could purchase that AMD thingie, but it's not a dual so stick with it hehehe:D
     
  4. Mr. Anderson Moderator emeritus

    Mr. Anderson

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    Nov 1, 2001
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    VA
    #4
    Your frustration is understandable, and most likely shared by all the professionals here using their macs for high end production apps. Apple is in a hole and they need to climb out of it, not using a ladder, but something a little faster, say a rocket pack.

    But if you look at the other thread, showing that Apple is having discounts on the current crop of G4 desktops till July 7th, that says that something new is in the works for MWNY. Now what would you be willing to settle for? Most likely you're not going to get a machine that will beat a dual 2 GHz AMD, but something that will definitely be much faster than what we've seen on the desktop to date. The XServe sets a good example, a new mobo, faster memory, these can be expected.

    So, what would you settle for?
     
  5. iGav macrumors G3

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2002
    #5
    Apple won't die in July.........

    And judging by Apple's movements in DV and Post software...... (Post and HDTV work, makes audio look like powerpoint in terms of power needed!!) and with certain hi-end creative companies shifting over to mac's, I'd say that Apple have some serious hardware in the pipeline....... ;)
     
  6. sjs macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2002
    Location:
    GA
    #6
    I'm not a pro user, so my response is more from a marketing standpoint: what I think Apple must do at a minimum to make the pro market happy and get some positive attention.

    1. Dual G4s at 1.4 ghz withh DDR that works at that speed with the processor.

    2. OSX made to run more efficiently ( = faster).

    3. OSX with further improvement due to Quartz Extreme.

    All combined I'd suspect that would provide OVER 50% faster machines, maybe much more than that in certain applications.

    However, this just buys time til MWSF at which point if there is no G5 you are going to see people really mad and going to the AMD and Intel products which will be already on the market. It seems to be accepted that G4 peaks at about 1.5 ghz, which would correspond to an Fall 2002 timeframe. That leaves Jan 03 MWSF with nowhere to take G4...hence enter G5.

    It is very interesting to watch Apple's broad strategy unfold with machines and operating systems. Its really quite brilliant, and frankly gives me hope that they can "take off" with consumers, scientists, artists and maybe education. (business - not yet).

    It would be ironic if the only part of the strategy Apple fails in is the one part of the equation they do not control: processors.

    You just HAVE to believe that SJ is not unaware of what Motorola has coming and when. To get ambushed would really be inexcusable from a business standpoint.
     
  7. Recoil thread starter macrumors newbie

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    May 15, 2002
    #7
    Thanks for not bashing me . I love macs and yes I am a little frustrated by moto and apple . I should have cleared up a few things before so you can see the world though my eyes .

    In the audio world DSP is key to getting things to run in realtime . I have been waiting for to long to upgrade my G4 to a dual 1.5Ghz or 2.0Ghz I can't wait any longer . It's not a personal issue it's a biz , time and money issue . I would be very happy with a dual G4 1.4Ghz So I will wait until july and see if moto can bring it to me .
     
  8. Mr. Anderson Moderator emeritus

    Mr. Anderson

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    #8
    The dual 1.4 should be reasonable for MWNY. But it would most likely be the high end machine that wouldn't be available for several months, so your delivery time frame might be September anyway. Always need to take that into consideration. I hope you get what you're looking for.:D
     
  9. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

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    Jan 11, 2002
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    Los Angeles
    #9
    I agree, but Apple is currently catering more to the video crowd than to the audio crowd. I mean, FCP and DVDSP are very strong sellings points for the Mac, even if the hardware is dated. But the audio side doesn't have anything tempting them to stay Mac. If FCP and DVDSP didn't exist I think we see video people start looking away from Apple too.


    Lethal
     
  10. phantommaul macrumors member

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    Jan 8, 2002
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    istanbul,Turkey
    #10
    thats another thing i like on apple users they are real gentleman :)) boy i really want a TiBook
     
  11. Funkatation macrumors regular

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    Dec 29, 2001
    #11
    why do people want the G5?

    I don't even know what it is... There are no posted specs of a desktop G5, so why are we speculating on it?
     
  12. barkmonster macrumors 68020

    barkmonster

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2001
    Location:
    Lancashire
    #12
    I use Protools LE myself, I can see where you're coming from...

    Admittedly, my philosophy on buying a new mac is down to whatever cash I have at the time vs how much real speed gain over my current one vs how long it will last before I start wanting to replace it.

    I've seen some pretty impressive leaps in performance on the regular "Dave C test" benchmarks on Digidesign User Conference.

    I can get 6 tracks out of my beige G3 with a lot of tweaking, a 400Mhz G4 could only manage 9, now we're seeing 24 tracks out of the dual 800 G4s and yet the Athlon systems are well into the 40s. These are obviously tracks with a selection of 5 cpu intensive plug-ins on each one, it wouldn't be much use if it wasn't a cpu bound test.

    Give us more bandwidth, faster CPUs with an even better IPC than the current G4 and I think we'll be able to get that kind of performance out of our macs. Of course with the new AMD chips coming out we might only just match the speed of the current Athlon XP chips if we're lucky and then AMD will bring out the hammer (is it called opteron now ?) and we'll be back to square one again.

    On the subject of IPC, why do there seem to be a sudden increase in PC benchmarks ratings with Dhystone 2.1 ?

    When the Pentium 4 came out I found a site that did a thorough test of the 1.4Ghz chip and it only got 1850MIPS, now we're seeing results from some different benchmarks suite and the 1.6 is getting over 3000 MIPS while the newer ones are nearer 5000 with the 2.4Ghz chips. It seems slightly dishonest to me.

    You can look at any G3 or G4 CPU from motorola and see it handles at least 2.3 Instructions per clock cycle, with the speed ratings they're using for PCs these days you'd think a 1.6 Ghz P4 was actually 60% faster than a 1.4, which incidentally only works out at mere 1.3 Instructions per clock cycle.

    I've found consistent AMD results hard to find but the Athlon seems close to about 2 instructions per clock cycle leaving the P4 way behind and being virtually the same as a G4 at the same clock speed.

    I know for me, all I want is a siginificantly faster mac that will last me 3 years or so before it needs replacing, I think Apple need to be putting the fastest CPUs in all pro models, no scrimping on cache either, that way, with enough of a boost, at least they might have a chance of making a mac that can compete with what's out there already.
     
  13. King Cobra macrumors 603

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2002
    #13
    Isn't there already a problem with PCs and dual processors? My theory (actually someone else's) with PCs and dualies: double the speed means double the crashes. Who originally thought that up? Clever...

    And if there is a dual 2.x GHz chip for the PC THAT ACTUALLY WORKS, then Apple will need to create something rather fast to compete. That goes without question. Just what will we see in July?
    __________________

    Any time is a great time for iPod.
     
  14. spuncan macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2001
    Location:
    Detroit
    #14
    SPEC-faults

    I've never examined the Spec testing closely but my guess is that intel made it so there chips do very well by incorperating the parts needed to get outstanding scores to impress techies. I read a PC sites review (anandtech) of the P4 they said the 2.4ghz model was equivalent to a 1.7ghz PIII (impossible to create but is equivalent) I think hmm the G4 would be much faster that a G3 along with a Athlon/Duron test. As for apple they desperately need to kick moto's @$$ into gear. Or get a new CPU company to compete against the moto chips (still using altivec)
    Last Rev.G4 MWNY
    1.0,1.2,1.4GHZ G4 CPU
    Nvidia radeon 8500,4mx,4 ti GPU
    DDR Ram same spec as server (233mhz (rambus same speed as my cpu :) )) 2.1ghz max)
    Rest of Mobo same as the Xserver.

    G5 Rev. A MWSF
    1.4,1.6,1.8 GHZ
    Nvidia radeon 8500,4mx,4 ti GPU
    DDR Ram (266mhz 2.1ghz max) (CPU Integrated :D WÔÔT )
    64-32 bit hybrid
    PCI-X
    Rapid IO
    .13soi
    Symmetric Processors
     
  15. Grokgod macrumors 6502a

    Grokgod

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    Feb 26, 2002
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    Deep within the heart of madness!
    #15
    Interesting

    I find this thread interesting and felt little desire to bash. that freaking dudes head in!

    oh no, I mean... thank you for bringing up this issue.

    Audio is of great import to me also, and I am distressed by the current mac state of hardware as I think we all are.

    And though i think that there is little that can be said in the defense of Apple
    when you consider that the numbers just dont lie.

    I will say this, I own a P4 2.2, bought it because it had the smaller die cast and ran cooler and various other decent specs and that i need one for work to deal with the stinkin scientists at the university.

    I hate my Pcheese its the worst thing ever and I can safely say that I wish that i hadnt bought it. Despite the fact that it runs Acid well and a bunch of great audio apps with a lot of plugs and tracks. Its still damn unstable and winxp is very intrusive and demanding! Cripes , i hate XP, really!

    Yes, it goes fast, very fast maybe thats why it crashs at least twice a session.
    Its going so fast that it can't steer out of the way of those byte walls or something.

    But even when it is running well. in the back of my head, I always think
    " When Apple gets the hardware its gonna be awesome! and kick the hell out of this crap, that i paid too much for."

    The Pcheese makes me money thats true but for personal use, I get on my imac or soon to arrive Ti powerbook. Because its a pleasure to compute on these machines and there is the great promise of more to come.

    That arrival will soon show its colors and when it does, I believe that it will spell the end of the Pcheese.

    Wintel days are numbered!

    I can see the writing on the wall, its coming. Wintel has gone to far with their abusive methods on Xp. Apple will soon become hareware enabled and when that happens, the full potential of OSX will blossom and end this reign of mediocrity. When the hardware is close enough, the issue will become the OS and when that happens.
    Well , its obvious.
    XP will be murdered by its creators in the name of mercy.

    So in closing, I understand your frustration, I feel for you oh brother.
    Yet, let not temptation lead you to follow the well worn path of immediate gratification, that way lies madness.

    Or just build yourself a cheap a$$ Athalon system to tide you over till Apple gets its Sh$T together. Then you can jump back on board after having tasted the juice of a harlet!

    <was that over the top?>
     
  16. Beej macrumors 68020

    Beej

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    Jan 6, 2002
    Location:
    Buffy's bedroom
    #16
    Re: Do or Die for Apple in July ...

    Someone says that before every Mac World. And Apple is still here.

    Will they die if they don't perform in July? You do the math.
     
  17. Macmaniac macrumors 68040

    Macmaniac

    #17
    MWNY

    Apple must release at least a 1.4ghz at MWNY or we are in big doo-doo. Also a faster bus speed is a must(200-300mhz) and they shoudl have these machines ready to ship. Of course 10.2 might come with these! I think we will see 1.2 and 1.4ghz duals.
    Lets hope!
     
  18. kidtronix macrumors regular

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    Jan 10, 2002
    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    #18
    can always hope but have you ever seen apple upgrade a pm with 400mhz?
     
  19. b8rtm8nn macrumors member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2001
    #19
    I'm interested in the next chip also. I remember Intel dumping money into BeOS so they could have a decent OS to show off their processor capability. I wonder if AMD or Intel is wooing Mac to be the sole provider. Both of them would love to have something better than Windows to show their muscle to end-users.
     
  20. arn macrumors god

    arn

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2001
    #20
    I agree... people always talk about huge leaps of mhz...

    but in the past 6 months, mhz jumped 133mhz (867->1ghz)

    1/01 -> 7/01 we went from 733 -> 867mhz (133mhz).

    I think prior to that, we were stuck around 500-550 mhz for a while.

    So... really, the next jump may only be 1ghz - >1.13ghz (133 mhz jump)


    arn
     
  21. Kid Red macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2001
    #21
    What kills me about posts about Apple's future is bleak, or Moto sucks, and Apple is behind everyone by 15 years, etc, is that they all say "I want to upgrade my G4 450 to a G5 8ghz but fear Apple won't have it ready so i will jump ship"

    Firstly, get the fricking latest machine then sit their and tell me it's slow and 30 years behind everyone. The people that bitch are on the slowest machines that aren't even produced anymore.

    Upgrade before you bitch, because if you did, you wouldn't bitch, at least not as much.
    (Now I'll go back to my spiffy dual gig and finish working)
     
  22. sjs macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2002
    Location:
    GA
    #22
    quote:
    
    Originally posted by kidtronix
    can always hope but have you ever seen apple upgrade a pm with 400mhz?
    



    I agree... people always talk about huge leaps of mhz...

    but in the past 6 months, mhz jumped 133mhz (867->1ghz)

    1/01 -> 7/01 we went from 733 -> 867mhz (133mhz).

    I think prior to that, we were stuck around 500-550 mhz for a while.

    So... really, the next jump may only be 1ghz - >1.13ghz (133 mhz jump)


    arn
    _______________________________________________


    Here is the math: to keep up with the Mr. Moore's concept of doubling every two years you have to bump speeds by 40% per year. By MWNY it will have been almost 6 months since they hit 1 ghz, so theoretically this could translate to 1.2 ghz in NY and to 1.4 ghz in SF 03 then about 1.7 in NY 03 and finally 2.0 ghz in SF 04. (I am ignoring the obvious fact that new generation chips will come along.)

    But when you are behind in this game of processor speed, if you "keep up" you only get further behind. If Apple goes to 1.4 ghz at MWSF 03, by then Pentiums will be at 3 ghz. By MWSF 04 if Apple hits 2 ghz, Pentiums will be at 4.2 ghz.

    Don't bash me, I know a million things can change in the interim, I am just saying if Arn is right about 1.13 ghz at NY, look out. Pentiums will probably be at 2.6 ghz and I am just saying that the way the PC world looks at things this will be considered a very feeble effort on Apple's part.
     
  23. Grokgod macrumors 6502a

    Grokgod

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  24. Paolo macrumors regular

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    Sep 21, 2001
    Location:
    The Moon
    #24
    Apple are not stupid

    Everyone talks as though apple don't know that the market is getting a little ahead. Do you really think that apple has a marketing department just for show?(unlikely) or do you think that they actually are reading the market and working on a specific direction to head the IT industry... You are forgetting that if apple finds it's self completely out classed by all it's competition it will just create an entire new market, and excel there. Apple has the will and the way... so stop talking aobut all this crap that apple is going to die, or fall behind etc.... They've been through worse than this before and come through with flying colors (imacs).
     
  25. iGav macrumors G3

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2002
    #25
    Heh heh..... that is true........ :D ;) :p

    I do wish I had a spiffy dual ghz machine as a renderer........ :( :D
     

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