Draft dodger vs. decorated veteran

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by mcfudd, May 30, 2004.

  1. mcfudd macrumors member

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    #1
    Many of my Republican friends cannot stand the thought of Kerry running the White House. Bush is doing a fine job of keeping the nation "safe." Kerry is one of those soft Democrats who will drop the ball if elected.

    However, Bush spent Vietnam pulling a coveted National Guard tour arranged -- no doubt -- by his very influential "skull and bones" daddy. Bush cannot even come clean about whether or not he showed up for that. (Kerry is also "skull and bones" and probably could have pulled strings to get a National Guard tour if he wanted to.)

    Kerry on the other hand, enlisted, and earned numerous medals while serving in actual combat in Vietnam. He earned his stripes and has my respect as a real military leader. Just like McCain, he has been there.

    So who do you want in office to clean-up the Iraq mess. A former coke-addict who is making his oil buddies richer with your tax money? Let's not forget Rummy running the Pentagon for another four years.

    Or, do you want a decorated war veteran? Not a perfect person, just someone who has more solid credentials.
     
  2. dopefiend macrumors 6502

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  3. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #3
    couldn't agree more ...
     
  4. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #4
    Kerry couldn't be WORSE. Could he? :confused:
     
  5. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #5
    of course he could be worse and bush could be worse too...

    i don't have much sympathy for kerry but at least it is not bush
     
  6. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #6
    I'd have no problem with Bush dodging the draft if he did legitmately. It the claiming he served his country in the National Guard when he didn't that pisses me off. If you don't believe in a war and refuse to go that is one thing. It is a whole other thing to be a warmonger and claim you served your country when you didn't.
     
  7. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #7
    With all due respect, this is a decision for US voters to make.
     
  8. janey macrumors 603

    janey

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    #8
    how does one dodge the draft legitimately? Like applying for conscienscious objector status isnt dodging the draft, having a legitimate medical reason or two doesnt quite mean you dodge the draft...
     
  9. mcfudd thread starter macrumors member

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    #9
    not everyone represented

    It is true this will be decided by US voters. But, the outcome will impact nearly every country on earth.

    If Bush wins, even by one vote, then it sends a message to the rest of the world that the "US voters" support his policy in Iraq and elsewhere. It does not account for all of the people who vote against Bush (and his possie Cheney, Rumsfield, Ashcroft, etc.)

    If Kerry wins, it can send a message to the UN and Europe that the Bush policy was a mistake and it is time to rebuild relationships between allies (ie. Germany, France, etc.) and the UN --- and regain some credibility.

    A win for Bush will put his "doctrine" into overdrive. It will validate everything he has done up to this point.

    I don't know about you, but the US is looking less like a constitutional democracy, and more like a fascist dictatorship (think Patriot Act, Carnivoir, CAPPS 2, Total Information Awareness, Etc.)
     
  10. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #10
    Flee to Canada, go to jail, etc.

    If you are going to dodge the draft than do with pride because you think the war or war in general is wrong. Don't do it and then turn around and start a war, especially not an illegitimate war.
     
  11. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #11
    This is exactly what I have been saying for a while now.
     
  12. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #12
    Just to muddy the waters:

    Dubya's getting into the NG was no different than tens of thousands of others. His behavior while therein is subject to debate, but it's piddlin' in the whisky to get excited that he was in the NG.

    Kerry's three Purple Hearts were from self-reported wounds, with no hospital time. The doctor who treated the third wound stated it was a piece of metal about one millimeter in thickness and some three millimeters in length; it was removed with tweezers and "treated" with a BandAid. After the third, he asked to be removed from the RVN.

    Compare: An administrative problem in WW II in the ETO was for guys to go AWOL from hospitals to rejoin their outfits in the front lines, rather than be sent back to England or the States. Another problem was that the guys at the front wouldn't report any non-incapacitating wounds, in order to not leave their buddies.

    We're a little short of heroes...

    'Rat
     
  13. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #13
    War heroes are the kind I can do without. There is no glory or honor is killing others. The real heroes are the ones who help others, not the ones who harm others.
     
  14. mcfudd thread starter macrumors member

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    living by the sword

    No doubt. I would have done a tour in Canada if I could not get one in the NG. However, Kerry did not opt for this. He enlisted and put himself in harms way. Not a popular thing for a rich kid during the 1960s to do.

    The point is more along the lines of what is "W" doing sending kids to die in Iraq when he was not willing to do the same.

    You might argue -- the Vietnam war was an unpopular war waged by the Washington elite in an effort to support the military-industrial complex. Well I have yet to see any evidence the Iraq mess is any different.
     
  15. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #15
    Neserk, sounds to me like you have a rather distorted view of folks who've been in war. They know better than most why war isn't fun. The heroism part shows that they have the self-discipline to control their fears. Medals for valor commonly are awarded because they put themselves in harm's way to protect or save others on the scene at that time.

    It's real easy to help others when there's no stress involved...

    mcfudd, as to Vietnam, read up on the SEATO agreement, signed by Ike and ratified by Congress. It's a bit more accurate, in assessing that war, to say it was "fought stoopid", rather than the fight was unjustified. IMO, the antecedent political error was the assumption by John Foster Dulles that Communism was a monolithic, uniform-goal worldwide unity. The appendix of Lederer's and Burdick's book "And He Is Us" offers some worthwhile explanatory reading, although the entire book is quite valuable...

    'Rat
     
  16. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #16
    all I know is what I hear from people who have been there. And it is pretty pathetic.

    And why are they putting themselves in harms way? Because they are in someone else's country fighting against them? When you are the aggressor it doesn't count. That is called Karma, I believe.
     
  17. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #17
    Which is of course what Kerry did when he won his Silver and Bronze Stars. You seem to dismiss this while not taking Bush to task for using his considerable family influence to get into the National Guard. An act that prevented him from ever having a realistic possibility of seeing live fire. 'Rat, do I need to provide the links from testimony that shows how Bush family friends got him in the NG over many others more qualified? I think you know it and don't want to acknowledge it. At the same time you are willing to buy every slander put out by the Bush campaign to slur Kerry's distinguished record. If you think none of this matters, then fine, but don't waste the time trying to compare what Bush and Kerry did.
     
  18. mcfudd thread starter macrumors member

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    #18
    same dog different fleas

    Whether you are talking about Kissinger and "containment" or the Bush/Cheney doctrine of "preemptive" strikes, the whole thing stinks.

    I don't need another CNN analyst or Washington insider to tell me what is going on. The real beneficiaries of these conflicts are:

    1. The intellectual advisors who get to test their academic ideologies in the real world. (Namely, Kissinger’s belief in the falling domino theory and desire to contain the spread of communism in Vietnam.)

    2. The defense contractors and the rest of the pigs that comprise the military-industrial complex.

    But, to risk moving away from the original point of this post, I still think Bush took the cowards’ way out compared to Kerry.

    It makes me particularly angry now that "W" is so arrogant with his "social engineering" and his effort to turn Iraq into a US approved democracy.
     
  19. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #19
    'Rat, did you ever read the Pentagon Papers? It has been years since I've read them, but I remember them as a searing indictment of the Vietnam War. Oh, and in case you have forgot, they were penned by folks in the Pentagon.
     
  20. Krizoitz macrumors 6502a

    Krizoitz

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    #20
    Yeah what were we thinking during WWII we should just have stayed home and let Hitler alone...
     
  21. dopefiend macrumors 6502

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    #21
    What about the people having to kill to help others?


    Don't try to convince a wall that its a window, its a hopeless cause.
     
  22. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #22
    I think you'll find WWII was not a war of aggression...
     
  23. dopefiend macrumors 6502

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    #23
    :eek: Thats a joke right?
     
  24. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #24
    No. Pay attention. We were talking about the US going in to WWII. As far as I remember, the Allies were not the aggressors in WWII :rolleyes:
     
  25. Stelliform macrumors 68000

    Stelliform

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    #25
    If you phrase the argument draft dodger vs. decorated veteran, Kerry might not have a chance. Lets look two elections back. On one hand we had Clinton who was smoking pot in England during the Vietnam war, and then we had Bob Dole who was severely wounded in WWII, and still bears the signs.

    Guess who won the election. So I don't think that the fact that Kerry went to Vietnam will resonate with voters come November.
     

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