Enlighten me

Discussion in 'General Mac Discussion' started by Ludicrosity, May 8, 2002.

  1. Ludicrosity macrumors member

    May 8, 2002
    I'm not a Mac user, not yet anyway :). I plan to switch once Jaguar is out and all the bugs are fixed (if any), mainly for Inkwell (love my graphics tablet) is my reason. My question is, how can a company that has only 4% of the market share still hold on to a rather complete list of software and overall support? I've heard someone here say something to the effect of "what company has more market share than Apple other than Dell?". That actually makes alot of since to me if I'm not considering the OS...

    I also want to hear some non adverstising opinions about the Mac from users. I don't use Windows, I use Linux so comparing OS X to Windows isn't very convencing to me :). I've pretty much made up my mind though hearing some objectional feekback would help me to justify the steep price :).
  2. jelloshotsrule macrumors G3


    Feb 7, 2002
    well, in my experience mac os is just very easy to use. it's intuitive and yet very powerful, especially os x. the variety of things one can do very simply with a mac and the software that comes free (iapps) is quite amazing. and yet, the iapps are very high quality.

    don't get me wrong, they aren't "professional" as far as imovie, iphoto, idvd... but they're very handy for most people.

    having grown up with macs, i can't do a good job of comparing them to much, so i'll leave that for someone else. jefhatfield would probably be able to help a lot as he works with pc's and uses macs at home... and others i'm sure.
  3. mc68k macrumors 68000


    Apr 16, 2002
    Re: Enlighten me

    Good to hear. We can always use more open-minded people. :)

    If anything, Jaguar will fix bugs, but introduce more since it's a major overhaul. Inkwell is one reason to switch, but handwriting recognition is rather superfluous to me. Seems like a waste of CPU. Typing on the keyboard is close to 0% CPU, faster, and requires no overhead. What if it doesn't recognize your handwriting? Then you have to go back and you end up wasting more time. But for straight tablet work it should be great.

    The innovators ALWAYS control the market direction but never the market share. Only people who are truly looking for the best overall experience decide to use Apple products. Quantity!=Quality. People only have ~10 apps they use on a regular basis, independent of the platform they're using. Windows has a plethora of apps, but the quality is NOT there for most of them. MOSX app quality is for the most part, top-notch even though there are not as many.

    I disagree with the "steep" price. For what you get with MOSX, you really get what you pay for. You even get free DevTools. Compritively, M$ is expensive and Linux is cheap. But with something like XP you get crap, and with Linux you get bad support. Apple is a good middle-ground with quality OS, app support, and legendary ease-of-use.
  4. cb911 macrumors 601


    Mar 12, 2002
    BrisVegas, Australia
    i'm not a Mac user yet, although i am getting the 800MHz TiBook any day now. i have to get a Mac because i'm going to college doing graphic design and Macs are industry standard. i don't know what to say to you Ludicrosity, except that if you like Macs, you might as well go for it!:D
  5. Ludicrosity thread starter macrumors member

    May 8, 2002
    Re: Re: Enlighten me

    I have good hand writing, not the best but anybody can read it (provided you can figure out all my spelling errors).

    I meant "steep" as in I "have" to buy another expensive piece of hardware. Doesn't matter if it's Mac or PC, it's still a dent in my wallet. The Mac and PC in my book equal out as far as value in concerned.

    If it's problem or question support you're refering too with Linux, it actually as excellent support. It's in the form of Newsgroups and messege boards, I have had not one question that has not been answered withen 4 days.

    Overall your post has been very helpful and I thank you. How would you assume the performace of Photoshop is for an 800Mhz PowerMac, Geforce 4 MX, and with say 768Mb RAM?
  6. mc68k macrumors 68000


    Apr 16, 2002
    Re: Re: Re: Enlighten me

    I guess the population for Unix is nerds/developers so yes, it probably has a stronger network of support than any other. But there's no one company that REALLY takes responsibility and gives support for it.

    Glad to be of service. That machine would be top-notch. Especially with the new Quartz Extreme, you should see REALLY good performance with that setup. Your machine is within the upper-tier of the PowerMac echelon. My only concern would be the Geforce 4MX. The MX suffix really equates it to a Geforce 2 level— not that that's bad or anything.
  7. Ludicrosity thread starter macrumors member

    May 8, 2002
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Enlighten me

    This is true, Linux (the distributions and included packages not the kernel itself) also has other flaws. The KDE desktop (GUI that uses XWindows) is a mess in my opinion but Gnome is getting there.

    Yeah I've heard, I plan to do lots of gaming on this mahine as well (as long as Asypr keeps pumping out the ports :)). Is there an aftermarket GeForce 3 card with ADC support? I'm confused as to why Apple doesn't put the Radeon 8500 and Geforce 3 chips as BTO options. Man do I miss 3DFX.
  8. mc68k macrumors 68000


    Apr 16, 2002
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Enlighten me

    Well, as it stands, there is official support for the Geforce 4 Ti and it's a BTO option on the Apple Store. But they haven't shipped a single PowerMac with it in there yet. So it's sort of nonwithstanding.

    Yeah, a retail Geforce 3 could be had still, but not BTO. I know they had ADC support, but I don't know if a non-OEM one would or not. That was the king-of-the-hill before the 4 and is still an admirable card.

    Radeon 8500 is my favorite. But I'm no gamer, so I don't know all the whiz-bang techno-talk on that issue. I just know ATI cards are supposed to do better w/Quartz rendering than Nvidia.

    If you like Linux, have you tried YellowDog PPC?
  9. Ludicrosity thread starter macrumors member

    May 8, 2002
    With 10, I don't need no stinkin' Linux

    I use Linux as alternative, gone are the days of the BeOS and it's few app's as my other, other option. Windows isn't all that bad, I just think it's boring. I've managed to get Photoshop 5.5 running under WINE believe it or not so I don't need Windows. The Gimp does a fairly good job as well.

    I've played around with MOSX at a local store (and I go there to play about every other weekend). After brushing up on my FreeBSD command line skills (or lack there of) I'm fairly impressed. Using a console (or terminal whichever you want to call it) is actually a time saving way of getting work done. It can be intemidating at first but it's actually fun to use and you get the real geekie feeling when using it.:)
  10. mc68k macrumors 68000


    Apr 16, 2002
    Re: With 10, I don't need no stinkin' Linux

    Intimidating at first, yes. The learning curve is very high, but with a little ambition, it's actually fun. Being in CS, Unix is a developers way of life, so I learned to use it fast.

    I do feel geek-y, and I like that feeling. I wish there was no GUI. That would seperate the real computer users from the fake ones.

    I wouldn't go into the Apple Store and use the CLI though, they might get suspicious. I know they do whenever I ask them a real question about anything. I'm not there to hide my power-user side though.
  11. Backtothemac macrumors 601


    Jan 3, 2002
    San Destin Florida
    Here are a few good reasons.

    1) The best damn looking hardware in the world. Period.
    2) OS X. The most amazing version of Unix ever.
    3) Apps. When you compare to Linux, the apps are going to blow you away.

    For example.
    Office, Photoshop, Illustrator, iApps, Final Cut Pro, DVD Studio Pro, games, quark etc, etc.

    The Mac is main stream enough that all of the major apps are there, plus many Apple only Apps.

    You will not regret the jump to Mac.

    Congrats on the decision as well. :cool:
  12. Mr. Anderson Moderator emeritus

    Mr. Anderson

    Nov 1, 2001
    What do you plan on using your machine for? That would be the one thing I'd think would have the greatest impact on what your choice for a new computer would be. Is it for work? Home?

    I have both PC and Macs at home and work and I would say as far as supporting them the Macs are so much easier to deal with. I don't want to have to spend significant amounts of time fixing, updating, tweaking my machines, I just wan to get them up and running and do my work. As far as I'm concerned Macs do this better than any other machine and its all because of the OS.

    I use both OS9 and OSX, I've recently got the developer tools and I'm itching to start playing with those in X, but I'm busy with some other projects right now, so it has to wait. Jaguar looks like it will be substantially better than OSX.1.4, especially with the QT6 that will be shipped with it. I'm looking forward to finding out for myself.

    It seems your decision is already been made and maybe your looking for some reasurance or justification? Not everything can be done on a Mac, so make sure you don't end up with the wrong machine. There is a lot of software thats PC only, and sometimes I'm very frustrated with this, but over all, I wouldn't really want to be any where else but on a mac.
  13. Ludicrosity thread starter macrumors member

    May 8, 2002
    All good points. I plan to use my new machine for both work and home use. I run Linux at home and (I have no choice) Windows XP at work. I often bring stuff home and Linux + Graphics Tablet support is so-so with the Gimp and some other no name tools (some good, some bad). I don't enjoy working in Windows, I feel it is a stable OS, but it's simply not my preference.

    I'm confident that the Mac platform will be the right choice for me. I use Photoshop, Illustrator, Flash, and Text Editors (for PHP, HTML, etc.) daily. At home I do my best to work with the Gimp and since all text editors are about the same that isn't a big concern. Having native support for Photoshop and all the other app's I use on Windows is my other compelling factor for choosing this platform over Linux.

    I'm in the market for a new PC for home anyway, as with all my PC's this new one will last me 2 years. So choosing a Mac as my next PC defenitally wont kill me and it's worth a shot. Who knows? I might even love the thing.

    dukestreet, you guessed it about the reasurance. From what I see here at these forums Mac users are intelligent and alot of them know what and how to use the best tools availble to get the job done. Thanks for all the help.
  14. Ludicrosity thread starter macrumors member

    May 8, 2002
    Thanks for the help first of all.

    I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here but have you seriously ever run Linux or any App's? Granted, I'm no expert on Linux but the availble applications are pretty complete. However, I agree with you that Photoshop and Illustrator are far better than any Linux native apps. Although as far as games are concerned Linux at the moment as more availble games and the ability to run a few DirectX Windows based games under Linux (by converting the directX processes to OpenGL) via a program called WineX.
  15. AlphaTech macrumors 601


    Oct 4, 2001
    Natick, MA
    Mac's rule, pc's just drool...

    Ludicrosity, with listing the applications you have in your post, I would say that you should wait until MWNY, and then get whatever dual processor system is released at that time. If you don't like the video card, then downgrade it to the lowest (or find someone out there willing to buy it from you). You can then get the ATI Radeon 8500 card (very sweet for everything, I have one in my game peecee). I have heard of people calling the Apple online store and getting them to ship systems without items, maybe you can get them to ship with no video card at all.

    What size monitor do you intend to get?? If you want an LCD, I can only recommend either one from ViewSonic or Apple. I know that the ViewSonic ones will work with any video card (of the ones you can purchase new) out there today. I have the VG175, and love it (has inputs for two systems to the one screen, using the on screen controlls to switch between the two).

    As for tablet support, if you have one that is fairly new, and USB, you will be able to use it with the Mac (under either OS 9 and/or OS X).

    The reason I am recommending not waiting for 10.2, is because once it is released, all new Mac systems will ship with it installed. If you want to hold off on using 10.2, then get a system before that. 10.1.4 is VERY stable, fast and powerful. I have never had 10.1 crash on me, and don't remember 10.0.x ever crashing either. Then again, I do run routine maintenance on my system (not as much as when I was using OS 9 a lot).

    Hope some of this helps you decide, and welcome to the fold. :D
  16. Ludicrosity thread starter macrumors member

    May 8, 2002
    Re: Mac's rule, pc's just drool...

    I'm not going to have the cash until the end of May anyway so I'll be sure to pick up whatever is good then. Thanks for the tip about calling the Apple Store, I'm going to do that unless Apple does a BTO with different chips after the new product releases. Seeing how the GeForce 4 Ti is a no-show on the Mac, Apple may switch to ATI for the higher end cards.

    As for the display, I currently have a 19" Viewsonic PF790. Not the best, not by a long shot but it has served me well for the past year and ahalf. I was leaning towards the Apple display's because of ADC. But if I have to go with a different card then I'll look into Viewsonic (I've always liked that company).

    By the way, I can't wait to see what's going to happen at MWNY. I wonder if i'll be able to get a good stream of the keynote live as I'm sure alot of people are going to be watching it. Maybe TechTV will show the "delayed" recordings like they did last time.
  17. AlphaTech macrumors 601


    Oct 4, 2001
    Natick, MA
    Ludicrosity, I have always had great results with ViewSonic screens. Besides the fact, that you can get screens the same size as what Apple offers (except for the 22" and 23" I believe) for less money. I paid under $900 for my VG175 (17.4" viewable).

    If you wait until early July, MWNY, you can either get a faster system, or get the current offerings for less (but probably not as BTO's from Apple).

    I have always been a fan of ATI video cards, and have yet to be burned by them. I read reviews of the Radeon 8500 card (was compared to the top of the line nVidia chipset at the time of release), and the ATI card won. It also got 10 out of 10 marks in all the reviews that I could get. I used that to paritally base my decision to go with that card, and I do NOT regret it at all.

    I am very glad that Apple stuck with ATI in the TiBook for video, and even more so that they chose the 7500 chipset (the 7800 might have been better, but I'm not complaining).
  18. Ludicrosity thread starter macrumors member

    May 8, 2002
    I'll wait, I'd sure hate to kick myself in the arse for buying a system too soon. :D
  19. AlphaTech macrumors 601


    Oct 4, 2001
    Natick, MA
    Been there, done that, still have the boot marks on my arse. :D

    I purchased my G4 tower (500MHz agp) less then a month before the expo when they announced the dual processor models... From that point forward, I waited until the next expo before purchasing any Mac systems. That way, you get at least 6 months, or so, between updates (major ones at least).
  20. cleo macrumors 65816


    Jan 21, 2002
    Tampa Bay Area, FL, USA
    I've never used Linux, so I don't have any personal experience to share. But I do have this anecdote:

    The other day I was sitting in a cafe talking to a friend about my new iMac (she wants one but her husband is pushing for a Gateway - blah). A completely arrogant science-type acquaintance came up and starting blasting me for being a Mac user. "I've hated Apple since the 80's. They're very unfriendly to developers. The interface is ugly and slow. The code is outdated. Etc, etc." My friend starts adding in, "Yeah, that's exactly what my husband says." Obviously, the dork-acquaintance has no clue about OS X, and I try to enlighten him ("It's pure Unix! It has a command line! It comes with Apache!" etc.) to no avail. He keeps going on about how nothing is as good as Linux, he will never use anything else, etc. So I decide I just have to humble him, and whip out my iBook.

    His reponse? "Wow." He just kept repeating "wow" and literally drooling until I wrenched the iBook out of his hands half an hour later. :D
  21. arn macrumors god


    Staff Member

    Apr 9, 2001
    next week's server annoncement may hint at what is coming as well.

  22. Grokgod macrumors 6502a


    Feb 26, 2002
    Deep within the heart of madness!

    I would have to chime in here in total agreement with Dukestreet!

    When talking about app for the MAC, you have to remember not to compare number of app with the number for linux.
    Its the quality of app and their pro uses in the graphic arts world.
    I would say that this is very important if your going into graphic arts!

    I use both world machines, Pcheese and Apples.

    Pcheese is faster no doubt but far less stable.
    I find this a very important asset.
    Again Dukestreet is correct in his assement of the OS differences.

    For increased stability and app is apple all the way.

    As for buying now or may, That would be a grave error in judgement.

    Everyone is hoping for at least DDram and speed bumps at New York.
    This will be an important event for all, wait for it.
    Also get the fastest graphics card that you can get and that means NOT a MX anything, period.

    I was interested in what someone said about the radeon being better than Nvida in working with Quartz and I am curious as to what prompted that statement.
    There was some problems with dual 1 gigs and displays recently and I am not certain how that was resolved since apple has kept it hushed.

    Which brings me to the one concern that i do have about Apple which is their manner of relating to customers that that hardware issues. I find it very troublesome. But there is always some board to go and gripe to until the numbers pile up and Apple is forced to take notice.

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