Enough with G4's

Discussion in 'General Mac Discussion' started by macphoria, Feb 5, 2003.

  1. macphoria macrumors 6502a

    macphoria

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2002
    #1
    MacRumors just posted a rumor about possibility of upcoming G4 variant, MPC 7457 with speed ranging from 867 to 1833 Mhz and also 512k L2 and 4Mb L3 Cache. All I can say is...

    Enough with G4 already!!!

    Those specs are impressive indeed. 512k L2 and 4MB L3 Cache will definitely contribute to better performances. But I've had (same goes for many of us, I'm sure) enough of G4 variants. My first experience with G4 was Power Mac Dual G4 500mhz. Several years later when I upgraded, it was still G4 (Quicksilver). I really hope Apple does not drag us loyal Mac users around with yet another version of G4 this year. It is time to move on. It is time for G5 or IBM 970 or whatever mystery chip that is capable of competing with Intel and AMD.

    If these new G4 chips are used, I hope they are for consumer lines such as iBooks and iMacs, while professional line gets something new.
     
  2. vniow macrumors G4

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2002
    Location:
    I accidentally my whole location.
    #2
    You got a better chip in mind that's currently in production?
     
  3. benixau macrumors 65816

    benixau

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2002
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    #3
    look, the G4 was a great chip when it was introduced. it kicked the competition.

    actually, it is still a good chip, just not top of the line anymore. like all things technological, it becomes out-dated. the problem is, apple has no current better alternative from what they are showing us. so, whilst i dont want to have to put up with it - if it means that the 970s will be introduced at higher clock speeds, and we get bigger numbers for the pc idiots - frankly i am all for it.

    but i still agree, it is time for something new to make my MDD2002 worthless. :)
     
  4. cr2sh macrumors 68030

    cr2sh

    Joined:
    May 28, 2002
    Location:
    downtown
    #4
    If we get a g4 @ 1.8GHz and 4meg L3, I highly doubt anyone will be saying no to it. When it does come down, it'll mean two things. First that the 970 is quickly approaching, and second, that the 970 will have a L3 cache larger than 4megs. :D

    98
     
  5. macphoria thread starter macrumors 6502a

    macphoria

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2002
    #5
    --If we get a g4 @ 1.8GHz and 4meg L3, I highly doubt anyone will be saying no to it.

    Personally, I think I would say no to it. G4 IS highly capable chip, except that major upgrade is needed not just for the competition sake, but for Mac softwares to really work in snappy manner. I personally use a lot of graphics intensive softwares doing design and movies. It is fine and works wonderfully the way it is. But it is not awesome in my opinion. As the softwares become more sophisticated, they become more processor-labor intensive. I think a new chip, possibly IBM 970 which supposedly has multiple processor function built in (multiple core design, I believe it is called) as well as faster Bus speed among other things, would be something that would really make things fly. That would really compliment advanced software such as Mac OS X, instead of G4 which came out during Mac OS 9 days.
     
  6. MorganX macrumors 6502a

    MorganX

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2003
    Location:
    Midwest
    #6
    The G4 needs too much L3 to keep up with the PIV and Athlon. I think Apple should focus on helping developers produce optimized code and utilize Altivec at a minimum rate of 80% where applicable.

    There is currently almost no software optimized for PIVs and even less for MMX, SSE, etc. Apple should be able to facilitate this with it's monolithic control of the hardware, OS, and APIs.

    Before raising system costs with massive L3 cache, Apple should do all it can to insure ALL OS X software is optimized for a platform over which it has total control.
     
  7. benixau macrumors 65816

    benixau

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2002
    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    #7
    no. the power4 has multi-core design (i.e. two chips in one - one on top of the other) this chip is big and power hungry. it makes a lot of heat etc etc.

    the 970 is dual processor capable but is design to be used like we use the G4 now. two chips - a fat heat sink - a loud fan. if it were to go multi-core then it would pretty much become a power 4 chip.

    oh well.
     
  8. barkmonster macrumors 68020

    barkmonster

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2001
    Location:
    Lancashire
    #8
    How wrong you are!

    All the optimisation in the world can nothing about bandwidth. The G4 has LOADS of bottlenecks, going down the list, here's how starved a 1Ghz G4 is in stages :

    Altivec is 128 bit wide, on a 1Ghz chip it needs 16 Gb/s

    The L3 is 64 bit wide at 1 quarter cpu speed and supports DDR, this means 4 Gb/s

    The FSB is 64 bit wide, it doesn't support DDR and at 133Mhz only offers 1.06 Gb/s or 1.3Gb/s at 167Mhz


    Memory is pathetically slow on G4 based systems, PCs have gone WAY past what Macs can handle over the past few years and lots of L3 is the only thing that's kept the G4 from being completely slaughtered other than the efficient design of the G4 itself (low pipeline stages etc...).


    In order of speed the PC has had all these bandwidth increases :


    PC133 SDRAM (64bits x 133MHz) : 1.06 Gb/s

    PC2100 (DDR266) SDRAM (64bits x 133MHz DDR) : 2.1 Gb/s

    PC2700 (DDR333) SDRAM (64bits x 167MHz DDR) : 2.7 Gb/s

    2-channel PC800 RDRAM (2 x 16bits x 400MHz DDR) / Pentium 4 (400Mhz FSB) : 3.2 Gb/s

    2-channel PC1066 RDRAM (2 x 16bits x 533MHz DDR) / Pentium 4 (533Mhz FSB) : 4.3 Gb/s


    Main system RAM on a properly configured Pentium 4 Northwood can push more Gb/s to the CPU than the L3 can on a G4, 2Gb of RDRAM (some motherboards support even more) is going to have a far greater effect on the cpu bandwidth than a measly 1 or 2 MB/s of DDR SRAM.

    Even if these new G4s are 1.8Ghz with a 512K L2, 4Mb L3 and running on a 200Mhz FSB, they're still going to be quite starved of bandwidth. Let's hope the PPC 970 comes out in the next range of powermacs, the G4 is looking dated compared with cpus from 2 years ago now and jacking up the Mhz with extra cache and a tiny FSB speed boost isn't going to be enough for it to truly match the speed of current, let alone future Pentium 4 or Althon systems.
     
  9. MacCoaster macrumors 6502a

    MacCoaster

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2002
    Location:
    Washington, DC / Rochester, NY / Lexington, NC
    #9
    The PowerPC 970 will not have any L3 at all.
     
  10. kenkooler macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2002
    Location:
    Mexico City
    #10
    True, but right now it doesn't need them. The L3 cache is Motorola's attempt to keep up with other processors.
    Take for example the PA-RISCs with 32Mb of L3 Cache.
     
  11. macphoria thread starter macrumors 6502a

    macphoria

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2002
    #11
    Yet another Motorola G4 news release

    Motorola officially released the rumored detail behind new G4 chips, 7457 and 7447. My reaction is once again,

    ENOUGH ALREADY!

    7457 was previously rumored to be capable of upto 1.8 Ghz. Officially it is only capable of 1.3. L2 cache has been increased to 512Kb, but L3 remains 2Mb. This is hardly impressive specs. Sure it consumes only 10W of power while doing 1Ghz, but where is the speed?!

    Since Motorola supplies these chips to markets other than Apple, I really hope this thing is not headed for any new Macs coming out this year. Maybe except for iBook.
     
  12. ftaok macrumors 601

    ftaok

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2002
    Location:
    East Coast
    #12
    Re: Yet another Motorola G4 news release

    When they say 1.3 ghz, they mean that you can get them at 1.3ghz right now. In a few months (or six) you'll be able to get them at 1.6 or so.

    Anyways, the best part about these chips is the power dissapation (not "consumption"). That means that you'll be able to have 1.3 ghz Powerbooks that won't need fans. The PowerMac line will be able to get rid of the multiple fan set-up.

    EDIT - I went back to check on the dissipation/consumption thing. It looks like Moto uses both terms on their press releases. Does anyone know if these two terms are interchangeable?

    EDIT 2 - In the press release, there's mention of the bus being a high-bandwidth 133mhz bus. Does anyone think that "high-bandwidth" means "2x"? Guess we'll find out in a few months.
     
  13. macphoria thread starter macrumors 6502a

    macphoria

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2002
    #13
    -----Anyways, the best part about these chips is the power dissapation (not "consumption"). That means that you'll be able to have 1.3 ghz Powerbooks that won't need fans. The PowerMac line will be able to get rid of the multiple fan set-up.

    That is good news. However, considering even lower power consuming G3 iBooks need fans, I doubt fanless PowerBook is possible. It would be terrific if that could be done though.

    Still, this upgrade to me is too little, too late.
     
  14. ftaok macrumors 601

    ftaok

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2002
    Location:
    East Coast
    #14
    My thinking for the fanless PB is that the PB are constructed of metal. Therefore, the heat can be disipated through the case rather than being blown out with a fan.

    If anyone can do it, it's Apple. Regardless, even with a fan, it wouldn't have to come on too often.
     
  15. Greenlightboi macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2003
    Location:
    Philadelphia
    #15
    You are mistaken, alot of Wintel code and programs are optimised for those paticular SIMD extensions. And you can't utilize Altivec 80%.... in most applications. SIMD extensions only work when there is repetive code, as there is in Multimedia applications. I bet most of the programs you use are already Altivec enabled.
    The G4, the best way to put it, is a cursed chip. It all started with the inablity to ship the 500Mhz version... Apple shouldv'e known then to quit. It just lacks an ability to be accelarated.
     

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