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johnnowak

macrumors 6502
Jul 24, 2003
498
1
New York, New York
Originally posted by MrMacman
I *really* hate the H2.

And by 'really' I mean, they are opening a Hummer Dealership close to my house and I believe I have slowed them down several times.

I brought to their attention that the dealship itself (being rebuilt) was too big for the lot they owned and that they ignored several other building codes.

I led a 20 person boycott of them building these monstrosities and when they open I expect to have even greater support.

They are gas gulping machines, only Triumphed by machines which aren't mass produced, such as the 'Enzo'.

Only the Enzo the Super Car, that even if the smallest push on the gas makes the car zoom to speeds of 80 MPH.

Yes, I hate the H2.

No offense but.. can you even drive yet?

Cars are as much an emotional thing as they are practical for many people, myself included.

When I was 15, I felt the same way you did. How stupid.. waste of gas.. pollution.. etc.

You honestly though should wait till you take an S-curve at 70 in a random european stealth sedan (or hatchback in my case) before saying what people should and shouldn't buy.
 

vniow

macrumors G4
Jul 18, 2002
10,266
1
I accidentally my whole location.
Originally posted by tazo
as soon as i get an apology from macfan25 for stealing my avatar, although now it is changed, i will change it back...

attachment.php
 

iGav

macrumors G3
Mar 9, 2002
9,025
1
I actually quite like the civie-humvee... :eek:

That said, it's overkill for the road, they should have made it from composite and aluminium to keep the weight down and stuck a TDI engine in it for added economy and low rpm torque!! In it's current form it's simply over engineered, abit like the latest Range Rover...
 

scem0

macrumors 604
Jul 16, 2002
7,028
1
back in NYC!
Seems like the relatively small amount of Hummers should not be the environmentalist's main concern.

SUVs hurt the environment more.

I will show this to my mom anyways though, who is a environmentalist.:eek:;)

scem0
 

Mr. Anderson

Moderator emeritus
Nov 1, 2001
22,568
6
VA
Originally posted by johnnowak
No offense but.. can you even drive yet?

hahaha thanks for that :D

scem0 - there is always going to be some vehicle with the *worst* emissions/gas mileage. This one will most likely be targeted for those reasons alone - so if it isn't the H2 it will be something else.

And there are more on the list ;)

D
 
Originally posted by Frohickey
Why should you care what type of vehicle a person drives? Are you a tyrant?

Far from it. These large vehicles instill a sense of power and recklessness in the people who drive them. They take up too much parking space on my street. They pollute the environment excessively. Their mass and height is a threat to average size cars in a collision.

It's all weiner-show. Especially for the women.

Ultility? For what? The average mini-van has twice the cargo room as an SUV. All SUVs have are height and a masculine appearance.

Drive what you want, but be prepared to be judged on the choices you make.
 

johnnowak

macrumors 6502
Jul 24, 2003
498
1
New York, New York
Originally posted by scem0
Seems like the relatively small amount of Hummers should not be the environmentalist's main concern.

SUVs hurt the environment more.

scem0

.. So what's a Hummer then?

And don't you mean their small amount should make them not a concern, not their small about shouldn't BE their concern?
 

iJon

macrumors 604
Feb 7, 2002
6,586
229
Originally posted by jayscheuerle
Far from it. These large vehicles instill a sense of power and recklessness in the people who drive them. They take up too much parking space on my street. They pollute the environment excessively. Their mass and height is a threat to average size cars in a collision.

It's all weiner-show. Especially for the women.

Ultility? For what? The average mini-van has twice the cargo room as an SUV. All SUVs have are height and a masculine appearance.

Drive what you want, but be prepared to be judged on the choices you make.
i can bet you that a mini van doesnt have as much space as my family's suburban. plus minivans are ugly, but that has nothing to do with the topic. personally i like driving the suburban. its the 2500 version so its jackedup way off the ground in stock condition. i can see everything on the road, its fast, i can go forever with out filling it up and it can fit all my friends into the car. some people hate suv's and thing they should be banned off the road, but it will never happen, because no one listens to those people and when i have kids and have a suv i will no if anyone hits me chances are much greater that my children wil be alright.

iJon
 

wdlove

macrumors P6
Oct 20, 2002
16,568
0
It's the American spirit to always want bigger and better. That is the way it has always been, and so it will always be!
 

Dros

macrumors 6502
Jun 25, 2003
484
1
Originally posted by iJon
personally i like driving the suburban. its the 2500 version so its jackedup way off the ground in stock condition. i can see everything on the road, its fast, i can go forever with out filling it up and it can fit all my friends into the car. some people hate suv's and thing they should be banned off the road, but it will never happen, because no one listens to those people and when i have kids and have a suv i will no if anyone hits me chances are much greater that my children wil be alright.

iJon

If you really care about your kids, don't drive a jacked up Suburban. They are thought to be safer in that one instance (two cars colliding), but are actually very unsafe due to rollovers during and away from accidents. People confuse "demolish the other car" with "I'm safe". And because SUVs are called trucks, they don't need to meet other safety requirements of cars. So SUV does not equal safety. Of course, most people think, "I'm not a crazy driver... others will roll but not me", but of course, they are wrong. And please, remember to give a buck to a car driver once in a while since they are paying to keep your insurance rates low.

Copied material below:
SUVs are heavier and ride higher than regular cars. The high ride contributes to a propensity of SUVs to roll over in accidents. According to NHTSA, SUVs rollover in 37 percent of fatal crashes, compared to a 15 percent rollover rate for passenger cars._ Rollover crashes accounted for 53 percent of all SUV occupant deaths in single vehicle crashes in 1996. Only 19 percent of occupant fatalities in passenger cars occurred in similar crashes.

In examining deaths per million passengers, SUVs had nearly the same death rates in accidents as small cars, but substantially more fatalities than mid-sized or large cars.

The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety has recently examined head restraint designs for cars and SUVs._ Proper head restraints can lower the severity of whiplash injuries in an accident._ In a May 1999 study, the Institute found only two models of SUVs - the Mitsubishi Montero and certain models of the Chevy Blazer - had head restraints that merited a "good" rating. Most were listed as "marginal" or "poor."
 

iJon

macrumors 604
Feb 7, 2002
6,586
229
Originally posted by Dros
If you really care about your kids, don't drive a jacked up Suburban. They are thought to be safer in that one instance (two cars colliding), but are actually very unsafe due to rollovers during and away from accidents. People confuse "demolish the other car" with "I'm safe". And because SUVs are called trucks, they don't need to meet other safety requirements of cars. So SUV does not equal safety. Of course, most people think, "I'm not a crazy driver... others will roll but not me", but of course, they are wrong. And please, remember to give a buck to a car driver once in a while since they are paying to keep your insurance rates low.

Copied material below:
SUVs are heavier and ride higher than regular cars. The high ride contributes to a propensity of SUVs to roll over in accidents. According to NHTSA, SUVs rollover in 37 percent of fatal crashes, compared to a 15 percent rollover rate for passenger cars._ Rollover crashes accounted for 53 percent of all SUV occupant deaths in single vehicle crashes in 1996. Only 19 percent of occupant fatalities in passenger cars occurred in similar crashes.

In examining deaths per million passengers, SUVs had nearly the same death rates in accidents as small cars, but substantially more fatalities than mid-sized or large cars.

The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety has recently examined head restraint designs for cars and SUVs._ Proper head restraints can lower the severity of whiplash injuries in an accident._ In a May 1999 study, the Institute found only two models of SUVs - the Mitsubishi Montero and certain models of the Chevy Blazer - had head restraints that merited a "good" rating. Most were listed as "marginal" or "poor."
ah you make a very good point, this is very true. i guess its just because ive never had and friends or know anyone who has had this problem with an suv, but it is very probable. but my favorite suv has been the bmw x5, which i may take interest when i get older, and is very safe. the suburban has been a good car because it can hold everything we need for the long trip and has proven itself useful overtime. i guess when i get older and get married i just wont let my wife drive the suv to keep the kids safe ;)

iJon
 

johnnowak

macrumors 6502
Jul 24, 2003
498
1
New York, New York
The suburban doesn't even have crumple zones. All the impact from that 6000 pound truck goes right through you. If you really want the best protection for your kids (as I'm sure you do) get a Volvo or Saab next time around.
 

iJon

macrumors 604
Feb 7, 2002
6,586
229
Originally posted by johnnowak
The suburban doesn't even have crumple zones. All the impact from that 6000 pound truck goes right through you. If you really want the best protection for your kids (as I'm sure you do) get a Volvo or Saab next time around.
haha ok, but im 17 and i dont know why im even talking about car safety, i hardly know anything about cars and should probably shut up now. hopefully i wont have kids soon and have to worry about it, haha.

iJon
 
It's interesting that those defending the right to drive these monsters are too young to remember the energy crisis during the mid-70s. Before then, the average Cadillac Eldorado or Ford Country Squire probably weighed close to what all these plastic-filled SUVs do today.

Ah, the good old days of jumping from the back seat to the rear of the wagon while moving, avoiding the hot-metal bolts that held the front seatbelts to the car-frame, lap belts, giant bench seats, 8 cylinders and 5' hoods. How the hell'd we ever survive childhood?
 

Frohickey

macrumors 6502a
Feb 27, 2003
809
0
PRK
Originally posted by Dros
One reason to care is if that person's choice costs you money. SUVs are regulated as trucks, under regulations from a time when 'trucks' were something farmers drove, and so don't need to have the same emissions as cars. Result? A dirtier environment that I have to contribute to cleaning up. Of course, people shouldn't be forced to drive the cleanest vehicle, but why not ask them to shoulder the cost of their choice?

Likewise, road wear and tear and insurance rates are subsidized by actual cars. Making car owners pay for the benefit of others sounds tyrannical to me.

Gasoline taxes are used for road construction and maintenance. These taxes might also be used for environmental clean-up. Profits from gasoline sales could go into more R&D to formulate cleaner fuels. So, the way I see it, the higher fuel costs paid by SUV owners means they are already shouldering the cost of their choice.

If the environmentalists want to make a real impact on pollution, they should clamp down on the people driving 10-20 year old cars, and make them buy newer cars with better emission control. But you don't see that happening because drivers of older cars are more likely to be from the lower income scales. Can't be seen as against poor people who drive these old jaloppies hauling their 6 family members to separate jobs driving more miles than the rich guy with the newer H2 does to go to the office.

Similar thing when animal rights activists pour paint on rich ladies wearing fur coats. I'll respect them when they go to a Hells Angels block party and do the same thing to the ones wearing leather jackets.
 
Originally posted by Frohickey
If the environmentalists want to make a real impact on pollution, they should clamp down on the people driving 10-20 year old cars, and make them buy newer cars with better emission control.

Do you really think a Lincoln Navigator or H2 has better emissions than an '83 Volkswagon Rabbit? Remember, this must be considered with the variable of mpg as well. Pointing the finger at others in no way absolves other guilty parties, it just adds to the size of the offending groups.

- j
 

Dros

macrumors 6502
Jun 25, 2003
484
1
Originally posted by Frohickey
Gasoline taxes are used for road construction and maintenance. These taxes might also be used for environmental clean-up. Profits from gasoline sales could go into more R&D to formulate cleaner fuels. So, the way I see it, the higher fuel costs paid by SUV owners means they are already shouldering the cost of their choice.

That's a reasonable argument, if you believe SUVs contribute to the general cost as the same rate by which they guzzle gas compared to cars. A typical SUV gas mileage is half of a car, so they pay twice the amount of a car owner towards upkeep via gas taxes. Studies I've seen show that road damage goes up as the square of the axle weight, so SUV road damage costs are 6 times that of a car. So if you really want to shoulder the cost of your choice, ask for an extra tax by car weight. This makes those freaky environmentalists driving electric vehicles pay their fair share as well.

One reason why I don't like SUVs is that these giant corporations lobby to make them under rules for farm trucks of 30 years ago, then sell them with the highest margins of any vehicle despite the inferior worksmanship. I just don't like getting shafted!
 

Frohickey

macrumors 6502a
Feb 27, 2003
809
0
PRK
Originally posted by Dros
So if you really want to shoulder the cost of your choice, ask for an extra tax by car weight. This makes those freaky environmentalists driving electric vehicles pay their fair share as well.

One reason why I don't like SUVs is that these giant corporations lobby to make them under rules for farm trucks of 30 years ago, then sell them with the highest margins of any vehicle despite the inferior worksmanship. I just don't like getting shafted!

So, how does government recoup their costs for freight trucks, vehicle license fees, all of those stickers that you see on tractor trailers. Same with SUVs, they get commercial license plates which costs more than passenger vehicles.

Passenger vehicles used for businesses such as taxis and busses cost more too. Thats how its done now.

If you have government hip-deep in regulation of the car industry, why are you surprised that you have giant corporations lobbying to make these vehicles under some of these byzantine government car industry regulations? One is the response of the other. How about we get government out of the business of regulating the car industry?

As to high margins and inferior workmanship, seems that the customers of these vehicles think there is enough value in the vehicles to warrant the prices they pay for them. They must not think that the workmanship is inferior, or else they will not be buying them in such quantities that companies can charge higher margins on them.

The market can take care of itself. It doesn't need the meddlesome hand of government regulations. What government can do is make sure that fraud in the marketplace is punished according to the law. I haven't seen any H2 commercials saying it will increase your 'member' size. ;)
 

Dros

macrumors 6502
Jun 25, 2003
484
1
Originally posted by Frohickey
So, how does government recoup their costs for freight trucks, vehicle license fees, all of those stickers that you see on tractor trailers. Same with SUVs, they get commercial license plates which costs more than passenger vehicles.

If you have government hip-deep in regulation of the car industry, why are you surprised that you have giant corporations lobbying to make these vehicles under some of these byzantine government car industry regulations? One is the response of the other. How about we get government out of the business of regulating the car industry?

As to high margins and inferior workmanship, seems that the customers of these vehicles think there is enough value in the vehicles to warrant the prices they pay for them. They must not think that the workmanship is inferior, or else they will not be buying them in such quantities that companies can charge higher margins on them.

The market can take care of itself. It doesn't need the meddlesome hand of government regulations. What government can do is make sure that fraud in the marketplace is punished according to the law. I haven't seen any H2 commercials saying it will increase your 'member' size. ;)

The trucking industry is even more heavily subsidized than SUV owners. Commercial license fees help, but are just a fraction of the true cost.

I'd be for reducing regulations if people were willing to shoulder actual costs. The market is efficient, certainly, so let people make choices based on cost rather than propping up certain modes with subsidies. I agree, calling them trucks is needless government intervention. I'm fine with not having any safety regulations if people can pay for that choice. Don't want to wear a motorcycle helmet? Fine, just don't come looking to me to pay when you smear your head across the road. Want to buy a vehicle that creates congestion and wears down roads. Pay a true fee and go to town!

As to people buying SUVs despite the high margins... most of recent economic theory is about how people make irrational choices, i.e. are suckers. I'm not saying SUVs don't have value and that some people may not need or want them, it is just if they create higher insurance claims, make them pay, if they pollute, make them pay, if they cause more road damage, make them pay. Then let the "efficient market" have its way.
 

pseudobrit

macrumors 68040
Jul 23, 2002
3,416
3
Jobs' Spare Liver Jar
I pay heavier road tax than gasoline engine drivers.

I have a TDI that gets 50 mpg and I'm punished by having to pay higher taxes per gallon because the gov't expects me to be filling a road-destroying 18 wheeler. At least I don't have a lawn mower. It would be really crappy to pay road tax for mowing your grass.

Oh -- and my reward for having such a thrifty green car? I fill up once a month.
 

MrMacMan

macrumors 604
Jul 4, 2001
7,002
11
1 Block away from NYC.
Originally posted by pseudobrit
I pay heavier road tax than gasoline engine drivers.

I have a TDI that gets 50 mpg and I'm punished by having to pay higher taxes per gallon because the gov't expects me to be filling a road-destroying 18 wheeler. At least I don't have a lawn mower. It would be really crappy to pay road tax for mowing your grass.

Oh -- and my reward for having such a thrifty green car? I fill up once a month.

Yeah seriously.

They should have clean diesel laws so we can bring over the cars from Europe that get nice MPG but are forced to use diesel...

Comeon, with Ford Backtracking in MPG: (Ford Promised to be __% more fuel efficent by 2010 but this year they were LESS Fuel efficent in all of their models)

We need the hybrid, cleaner less polluting cars to come out on the market!
 

pseudobrit

macrumors 68040
Jul 23, 2002
3,416
3
Jobs' Spare Liver Jar
Shame, too; the Focus TDCi is supposed to be a blast to drive.

Matter of fact, most diesels are more fun to drive than gasoline cars. They've a lot more grunt in the low end and their torque is massive.
 

iJon

macrumors 604
Feb 7, 2002
6,586
229
Originally posted by MrMacman
Yeah seriously.

They should have clean diesel laws so we can bring over the cars from Europe that get nice MPG but are forced to use diesel...

Comeon, with Ford Backtracking in MPG: (Ford Promised to be __% more fuel efficent by 2010 but this year they were LESS Fuel efficent in all of their models)

We need the hybrid, cleaner less polluting cars to come out on the market!
they hybrid is such an awesome concept. those things get great MPG. only thing i dont like about the insight is that its fugly. but then there is the hybrid civic. it is nice but the problem for me would be that it is too slow. after having an acura legend for my first car its been great. i told my mom for next car this christmas its gotta be equal as fast or faster. i wonder if the hybrid engine is compatible with a fast car, or if you have to sacrifice that engine for speed.

iJon
 
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