Equality for women- how far has it come really?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by wwidgirl, Apr 11, 2004.

  1. wwidgirl macrumors member

    wwidgirl

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    #1
    So what do you think?

    How far has women's lib really come?

    I think this issue is akin to racism in that, technically/legally, everyone is equal, however, systematic as well as institutional racism and sexism still exists. Discuss.
     
  2. whocares macrumors 65816

    whocares

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    #2
    That would really depend on which country/culture you're considering...
     
  3. wwidgirl thread starter macrumors member

    wwidgirl

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    #3
    Sorry, I should clarify- In the western world.
     
  4. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #4
    since when could women start threads?!?!

    just kidding :)
     
  5. wwidgirl thread starter macrumors member

    wwidgirl

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    #5
    I'm really a man. I put the "girl" at the end of my username so people will take me less seriously.
     
  6. macka macrumors regular

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    #6
    Oh. :eek:
    Well um, that's sure to throw everybody off..

    Since universal suffrage for women at the turn of the 20th century......can't really say much on their behalf. :cool:
     
  7. frankzeg macrumors member

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    colorado
    #7
    Based on my highly biased position as a male I would say that in certain industries the barriers are substantially gone. I work at a large corporation and anyone who would propose to throw up some sort of glass ceiling would be treading on extremely thin ice. This is not to say that top positions are filled in a wholly unbiased way. However at some point the bias against women fades to the same level as is held against someone who is not from the same technical or workgroup background as the top dog.

    At the working level where I reside I can see no evidence of substantial bias. There is a bias against anyone who is the meek, mild, workaday type who does the job but shows little motivation to do more. Even worse is a lack of competence and an unwillingness to learn. I think those personality types are more or less evenly divided between sexes.

    However in less supervised industries I can imagine it is the same as 1950. Especially where one man has total decision making power and is untroubled by a Human Resources department. However if the practices are obvious that manager is begging to be sued. Even if he wins the costs are not inconsequential. Perhaps worse the demands on his limited time to support such a suit can be enormous. Given today's business climate where inefficiency is punished severely I cannot imagine a well-managed company not taking advantage of a talented woman and instead promoting a no-good brother-in-law. Who can afford such a luxury? But I suppose there are plenty of examples.

    I often wonder if the lack of women in high profile postitions in industry is because of the personal decisions that must be made to get to that level. In my business it means that you don't get to see your family much and are on the road MOST of the time. You work extended hours forever and although you are well compensated the $/hr are not extraordinarily high until the very highest levels are reached. Certainly they are not enough to justify losing most of your free time to a corporate entity. So you are sacrificing a scarce resource- your time on the planet- for a CHANCE at the big time. In addition as you rise you are increasingly disconnected from the real work of designing and making a product. It is likely that you got into the business because you LIKED doing that sort of work- it was a personal strength. It may not be to your liking to be forced to dispense with that activity. Anyway I wonder if women in general would be less inclined to make this sort of personal deal. They may be more inclined to start their own businesses so that the deal is more on their terms. Just some thoughts....
    z
     
  8. numediaman macrumors 6502a

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    #8
    How far has it come?

    Here is the picture from the bill signing ceremony for the so-called Partial Birth Abortion Law. Notice anyone missing? Anyone is a skirt? anyone not white?:
     

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  9. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #9
    White males are still given preference regardless of their abilities in the work place. Notice on the Apprenctice when it was the males vs. the females that had to unmix them when they were down to 4 (?) males. In the end you had 4 males and 1 female. Then 3 males and 1 female, 2 males 1 female, 2 males. The ratio does not make sense when you think about it. If the women were doing so well as a team why are they suddenly disappearing every episode?

    When people see a white male they automatically assume he is competant and he is hired, promoted, etc. etc. He may be, he may not be. But reality isn't really the issue.

    When I was an undergraduate and studying psychology I remember studies that showed that attractive, tall people were automatically assumed to be more intelligent and capable than shorter people or less attractive people. I can almost guarantee you that the same thing goes for white males.

    So, legal rights such as property ownership and being allowed to have a profession of choice, we've come a long way. But discrimination is still a huge issue, especially in the work place. So is devaluing what we do.

    OTOH, men get screwed in the home. Especially when it comes to divorce and child custody. They still have a shorter life span which may be in part do to unfair expectations of them increasing their stress levels.
     
  10. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #10
    ha! touche

    though i'd agree women have made great strides in the workplace, iirc there's still an overwhelmingly male-dominance in the CEO and board roles.
     
  11. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #11
    Someone just accused me of having PMS and saying I was unsuccessful in life and that is why I have the opinion I do!

    So, yes, it is alive and well!
     
  12. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

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    Jul 9, 2000
    #12
    when i was a kid, i never heard the term congresswoman

    there were no hillarys, elizabeths, or condis who may be put in the same sentence as presidential candidate or vp hopeful

    don't get me wrong, there still is a long way to go
     
  13. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #13
    in the past, the white male was the most common group in the workplace so it may not always have been an automatic preference or an attempt to leave others out

    but today, white women are the biggest single group, or women in general *as taken as a larger group, which outnumber men in the working world, are the most common group in the workplace/market so when nearly 99 percent of the ceo's of fortune 500s and majority of board chairman roles are white males then it can be said that there is absolutely a preference going on...one has to ask, "then where are the women?"
     
  14. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #14
    Thank you! Finally, someone else who sees it!
     
  15. Krizoitz macrumors 6502a

    Krizoitz

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    #15
    Because they didn't continue to perform as well? Because the tasks were different and it didn't suit them as well. The only way you would say there wasn't a bias is if the women won. You're bias is just as bad, you assume that if a white male does well he must be being favored. Have you ever stopped to consider that maybe they are just doing well. And before you go and say well Bill wasn't as good, you still have given no evidence to back that statement up. A few clips from a heavily edited TV show are hardly substantial evidence.

    You make this broad sweeping generalization about all situations and you expect to be taken seriously. Some people may assume a white male is more qualified simply because of his race/sex. Some do not. Maybe you live and work in an area where this is a particular problem, but you can't assume that it is prevalent everywhere based on that information alone.

    Without any evidence whatsoever you claim that whitemales are given privilege. If you expect people to be swayed to your side of an argument you can't just make sweeping over generalized statements like that and have no evidence to back it up.

    BOTTOM LINE
    Discrimination in society is still a very big issue. Where its based on race, sex, age, or religion it exists. I'm not going to be idealistic and say we live in a utopia of equality, i'd have to be out of my mind. BUT and this is a big but, the whole world isn't racist, sexist, etc. Many many people live their lives without resorting to discriminatory practices.

    You can continue to hold your belief that the whole world is out to get you and that we are all racist. You can contine to claim that I have been favored because I am a white male (I would love to see evidence of this, really I would). Likely nothing anyone says or does here will change your view because you don't want to see outside your box.

    I admit that bigotry exists, no one is denying that. But to claim that everyone is out to get you if your a woman or minority, well you are managing to alienate alot of people who aren't.
     
  16. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #16
    The above statement is a load of crap.

    Go elsewhere. I've no desire to interact with you and will no longer do so. You are the first person to ever be put on my ignore list.
     
  17. Krizoitz macrumors 6502a

    Krizoitz

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    #17
    Just out of curiousity, does anyone else see what I said as being that bad?
     
  18. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #18
    i don't see what you said as bad, but merely ignorant or from the view of someone who has had a very sheltered or limited life...this is not a bad thing in itself because we are all products of our life, how long we have been here, or how long we have been in the work force

    your statements do sound more ignorant than almost anything i have seen in these political forums on macrumors and i have been here nearly four years and i started the political talk here and it is those statements which can be taken as offensive, but it also seems obvious that you are not out to offend neserk on these forums in any way...i think you just have a different point of view and not an opposing view

    i live in an extremely wealthy area (pebble beach, monterey peninsula, silicon valley region, ca) and it is the "nose picker" capital of the world..there are a lot of really rich people of all colors and creeds who live such a sheltered existence that being aware is not high on the list...it's kind of like beverly hills, 90210 and people mature and grow up more slowly here...and a big issue can be how big the boobs of the girl you date are or which designer shirt looks best with your skin tone ;)
     
  19. Krizoitz macrumors 6502a

    Krizoitz

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    #19
    I certainly haven't lived a sheltered life, and I have seen racism and I do think its a problem, I just don't think that everyone is racist like Neserk seems to claim.
     
  20. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #20
    The problem is that sexism is ingrained in our culture so deeply and insidiously you can't really see it unless you're almost on the outside looking in.
     
  21. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #21
    even though i am a iminority, i did grow up where i live and thus, like most people in my town, have lived a sheltered life...at least growing up through high school and/or college

    like i said we are all just forming views from what we have or have not seen

    my best advice is to look at your statements ten, fifteen, or twenty years from now

    if then you still think what you said is true from many more experiences in your life, then all i have to say is that you and neserk simply agree to disagree...neither one of you are completely right or completely wrong...it really just comes down to perspective

    though i know i spent my first half of my life, 18 years, living at home and just living in one small affluent town, what you said in your statements are pretty much what i might have said at your age...i hated what old people 30, 40, 50, or older would always tell me and i thought they were staid or boring, but basically life will kick you in your teeth, hard, over the next few years/decades and you may change some viewpoints...but the best way to approach it can be to learn from the positives...and negatives

    i am just rambling on here and being middle aged, but really actually most likely more than half way through my life (middle age is a friendly way to say "i am 2/3 or 3/4 the way through"..or over the hill..., but i still feel like i am just starting to learn about life ;) ...young on the inside, but i have to do something bout that gray hair and flabby skin ;)
     
  22. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #22

    It wasn't simply what he said here but what he said on another thread (which has been locked). Then he comes here to attack. He has a tendency to make claims of things I believe or say that I don't (for example what I highlighted when I stated he was now on my ignore list).

    When he grows up I may talk to him again. In the meantime, I will leave it to the more mature males handle him here. I think you are the only people he will listen to. He certainly won't listen to a mere female.

    And thank you, btw. I appreciate your point of view.
     
  23. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #23
    no, you can't always see it. I did some research on women's studies and job discrimination earlier today. It was interesting to hear people talking. It is so part of our culture that people have to actually be educated in order to see it.

    Anyone who doubts, take a woman's studies class. I never had the opportunity, personally, but I've gotten bits and pieces in different courses from my professors who ranged from old white males (who were feminists) to middle aged lesbians females (also feminists).

    I even had some insight on my trip to Israel 9 years ago from a middle aged white male. Sometimes middle aged and older men have an easier time spotting discrimination than do woman and minorities. I think it is because they realize how people are *supposed* to be treated and see women and minorities not being treated that way. They also have often lived more life and seen more things with open eyes. Being older one also tends to not give a damn about what others think and they state the facts instead of trying to play the games.
     
  24. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #24
    i remember taking a women's studies class in college 20 years ago and we had to read the women's studies classic "rubyfruit jungle"...there were only two males in the class and i have to admit, it was too progressive and out there for either one of us to comprehend

    i simply sat in class too afraid to ask questions and the other boy was always saying what he felt but his views were typical of his age and he reflected a lot of what society still thought was the norm...his comments didn't go over too well in the context of the class ;)

    i thought the book was a statement of far left politics and on the surface that's what it may have looked like in the eyes of a boy...the class was populated by a lot of conservative christian girls and not once did i hear a comment coming from any of them that disagreed with anything political in the book...actually, they quite liked it very much as it addressed gender issues in a roundabout way...i never saw the connection then

    many years later, i read the book again and i was floored by its depth and then i understood...i wish i had paid more attention in college during that class but even if i had stayed in school and got a phd in women's studies, there is no way i could have grasped the major concepts of that book or many others

    for many of us, i think it takes many years of life and experience to be able to comprehend a book like that in its context and even though i think it is one of the most brilliant books of its time, it is far too sopisticated for the average college student since, imho, college is just a mere continuation of high school

    the best teacher in life is experience and many years of it
     
  25. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #25
    but that being said, i think there are many great books that are instantly understandable to even the youngest readers

    shakespeare may be hard to understand at first but the beauty of his work is that once you get past the language, the universal concepts are easy to grasp for just about any reader

    steinbeck is an author of profound depth which i feel is a good writer for people of all ages to comprehend

    and of course, the bible is a great read and mostly very easy to understand for readers of all ages...some of the cultural concepts and norms of the time are hard to fathom, but like shakespeare, after the initial culture shock, the concepts jump off the page and grasp the reader

    women's studies classes are very popular with students of all ages at the college here since more than any other class i can think of, it's wonderful to revist the concepts and ideas years after one attended college because many people, males especially, can be more present and empathetic to women writers on the issues of sexuality and gender

    one great book i recommend for all men is "men are from mars, women are from venus"...now that is an eye opener and goes a long way in explaining why men and women often have a hard time communicating
     

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