Ericsson Extends Patent Lawsuit Against Apple to Europe

[MacRumors]

Ericsson has filed lawsuits against Apple in Germany, United Kingdom and the Netherlands after failing to reach a global licensing agreement with the company over both standard-essential and non-standardized patents.

Ericsson claims that Apple continues to sell the iPhone, iPad and other products that infringe upon its patented technologies, some related to 2G and 4G LTE standards, even though its licensing agreement expired in January.

Ericsson has been attempting to license its standard-essential patents with Apple on terms that are fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory (FRAND), but the two companies have failed to reach an agreement following over two years of negotiations. Unable to resolve the situation outside of the courtroom, Ericsson has since filed patent lawsuits against the iPhone maker in the United States, and now Europe, for mediation by the courts.

"Apple continues to profit from Ericsson's technology without having a valid license in place," said Kasim Alfalahi, Chief Intellectual Property Officer at Ericsson. "Our technology is used in many features and functionality of today's communication devices. We are confident the courts in Germany, the UK and the Netherlands will be able to help us resolve this matter in a fair manner."

Ericsson, the world's largest provider of mobile network equipment, originally filed two complaints with the U.S. International Trade Commission and seven complaints with the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Texas against Apple earlier this year. In late March, the ITC agreed to investigate the patent infringement claims, involving 41 wireless-related patents.

Apple originally filed suit against Ericsson in January, arguing that it was demanding excessive royalties for patents not essential to LTE standards. Ericsson, which holds over 35,000 patents, countersued in a Texas courtroom just hours later, seeking an estimated $250 million to $750 million in royalties per year for Apple to continue licensing its patented wireless technologies.

Article Link: Ericsson Extends Patent Lawsuit Against Apple to Europe

 

[Steve121178]

Sounds fair to me. Apple either license them and pay the appropriate costs or get sued. Simple.

 

[maflynn]

Not surprising, this reminds me of the Nokia lawsuit that forced apple to negotiate a settlement with them

 

[UKgaryb]

Depends if they (Ericsson) has jacked up the prices, FRAND should be that, Fair and Reasonable.

Apple filed suit first, so seems like one company wants something out of the ordinary.

 

[Steve121178]

Depends if they (Ericsson) has jacked up the prices, FRAND should be that, Fair and Reasonable.

Apple filed suit first, so seems like one company wants something out of the ordinary.

Ericsson own the patents and should be able to demand the value they believe they are worth. Who are Apple to set the price?

 

[AngerDanger]

This lawsuit is gaining multinational support faster than most of Apple's services.

 

[Gaspode67]

Depends if they (Ericsson) has jacked up the prices, FRAND should be that, Fair and Reasonable.

Apple filed suit first, so seems like one company wants something out of the ordinary.

From the original post:

Ericsson has been attempting to license its standard-essential patents with Apple on terms that are fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory (FRAND), but the two companies have failed to reach an agreement following over two years of negotiations. Ericsson's arbitration offer with Apple has since expired, leading it to file patent lawsuits against the iPhone maker in the United States, and now Europe, for mediation by the courts.

So, Ericsson is apparently offering FRAND terms, and has had an arbitration offer open so long that it has expired. It sounds very much as if Ericsson has tried all the routes available to them here, and Apple is still refusing to deal or even let a third party arbitrate terms between them. I don't blame Ericsson for pushing these lawsuits. Apple look like they're dragging their heels like a surly teenager on this one...

 

[Waxhead138]

This lawsuit is gaining multinational support faster than most of Apple's services.

You deserve an award just for bringing some well needed levity to a thread about Patent Warfare. Well done.

On a more serious note, Ericsson has been around since roughly forever in the mobile world. I don't follow the patent cases closely, but this one seems like it probably could carry some weight. I don't envision Ericsson burning cash for the sake of it or entering the race for King Patent Troll.

 

[rdlink]

You deserve an award just for bringing some well needed levity to a thread about Patent Warfare. Well done.

On a more serious note, Ericsson has been around since roughly forever in the mobile world. I don't follow the patent cases closely, but this one seems like it probably could carry some weight. I don't envision Ericsson burning cash for the sake of it or entering the race for King Patent Troll.

Of course there is merit to their case. And there is likely merit to Apple's claim that they are asking too much for a FRAND patent. The two sides are sitting at the negotiating table like poker players, staring each other down. Ericsson has just raised the stakes. This is nothing more than a corporate negotiation.

They will continue to duke it out, calling each other evil and unfair until they come to a number that they both hate, and then they'll sign the agreement. Nothing to see here. Move along.

 

[cdwilliams1]

Ericsson own the patents and should be able to demand the value they believe they are worth. Who are Apple to set the price?

"Standards Essential" patents are treated specially. If my patent is incorporated into a standard that everyone must follow to inter operate, I fall under the FRAND clause - meaning I can charge a fair and reasonable fee that is non discriminatory and pretty much the same for every company- so they can all inter operate and participate in the standard. It's a trade off for making your patented technology the standard. So no, Ericcson can not just demand anything they want. Apple is within its legal bounds to argue that they should be charged about what everyone else using the standard is charged.

 

[RogerWilco]

On a more serious note, Ericsson has been around since roughly forever in the mobile world. I don't follow the patent cases closely, but this one seems like it probably could carry some weight. I don't envision Ericsson burning cash for the sake of it or entering the race for King Patent Troll.

This is all about Apple's and its lawyers forcing Ericsson to burn cash, a strategic move that will probably bite them (and shareholders) in the ass. I suppose when a company has more money than god, eventually they start believing their own press and acting like a deity.

 

[2457282]

"Standards Essential" patents are treated specially. If my patent is incorporated into a standard that everyone must follow to inter operate, I fall under the FRAND clause - meaning I can charge a fair and reasonable fee that is non discriminatory and pretty much the same for every company- so they can all inter operate and participate in the standard. It's a trade off for making your patented technology the standard. So no, Ericcson can not just demand anything they want. Apple is within its legal bounds to argue that they should be charged about what everyone else using the standard is charged.

Question -- what is everyone paying for the patents in dispute and what is Ericsson asking Apple to pay?

Based on your comment this seems simple - if they get $1 from everyone else and asking Apple to pay $2, then Apple will prevail. However if they are asking Apple to pay $1 like everyone else and Apple say they are only willing to pay $0.50, then Apple will lose.

Somehow, I doubt it's that simple, though.

 

[TallManNY]

The parties should have brought this to the courts a long time ago if they knew they weren't going to be able to reach an agreement. They could have also selected an arbitrator to set the price and then not taken up public court room time. But I guess they couldn't even agree on that sort of a process.

 

[Satan991]

Who is this Ericsson anyway?

Who is Ericsson again? Are they a cell phone manufacturer, because I don't remember seeing anything they've done recently? Are they still a valid entity? Do they still have a pulse? Are they gerbils?

 

[69Mustang]

"Standards Essential" patents are treated specially. If my patent is incorporated into a standard that everyone must follow to inter operate, I fall under the FRAND clause - meaning I can charge a fair and reasonable fee that is non discriminatory and pretty much the same for every company- so they can all inter operate and participate in the standard. It's a trade off for making your patented technology the standard. So no, Ericcson can not just demand anything they want. Apple is within its legal bounds to argue that they should be charged about what everyone else using the standard is charged.

Nicely put. Except one glaring exception. Ericsson is asking for a FRAND rate for the patents; not more. They've also offered to have the courts decide the rate.

"Ericsson has been attempting to license its standard-essential patents with Apple on terms that are fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory (FRAND)"

Apple doesn't want to pay FRAND rates. Apple wants to pay less.

Other than that tiny, little, minuscule exception you're right on point.

----------

The parties should have brought this to the courts a long time ago if they knew they weren't going to be able to reach an agreement. They could have also selected an arbitrator to set the price and then not taken up public court room time. But I guess they couldn't even agree on that sort of a process.

Ericsson offered the exact solution you're suggesting. Apple said no. The same answer they gave Nokia and Motorola in prior disputes.

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Who is Ericsson again? Are they a cell phone manufacturer, because I don't remember seeing anything they've done recently? Are they still a valid entity? Do they still have a pulse? Are they gerbils?

You should be embarrassed by your comment. Seriously, are you just joking?

 

[jayducharme]

This seemed suspicious to me:

countersued in a Texas courtroom

... the place where all the patent trolls sue because they usually get a favorable outcome.

We simply don't know enough details at this point. Is Apple trying to undercut Ericsson? If so, then Ericsson is right to sue. But to me, 1/4 to 3/4 of a billion dollars per year seems a bit excessive for a licensing fee.

 

[iMacDragon]

Who is Ericsson again? Are they a cell phone manufacturer, because I don't remember seeing anything they've done recently? Are they still a valid entity? Do they still have a pulse? Are they gerbils?

They sold the phone division to Sony. They make back end cell network equipment, much like Nokia does still.

 

[Satan991]

Nope...

Actually, I wasn't joking. If I was joking, I would have said, "A badger, a nun, and a jar of marmalade walked into a bar..."

I think I've heard of Ericsson a long, long, long time ago. But now it just sounds like patent trolls.

 

[wovel]

Ericsson own the patents and should be able to demand the value they believe they are worth. Who are Apple to set the price?

That is not how Standards Essential Patents work....

 

[DeadSeaMac]

This is all about Apple's and its lawyers forcing Ericsson to burn cash, a strategic move that will probably bite them (and shareholders) in the ass. I suppose when a company has more money than god, eventually they start believing their own press and acting like a deity.

Well said. With Ericsson looking at lower licensing fees in the near future based on new IEEE rulings regarding wireless licensing fees back in February, Ericsson has to try and maximize a deal with Apple before these lower rates kick in.

So yes, Apple is playing the "stall" card forcing Ericsson to continue to burn through legal expenses even as Ericsson now goes on the offensive with their multinational licensing war with Apple.

Ericsson tried to play nice with Apple for 2 years inside the FRAND sandbox, but Apple refused to let Ericsson play with their pail & shovel.

 

[BigInDallas]

This one is gonna cost apple. Imagine is Erickson could ban sales of iphone.
im not saying this is gonna happen but it could, right? Its time for Apple to realize that patent infrigment, even when Apple is doing the infringing, is wrong. Pay up or invent your own cell tech

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The parties should have brought this to the courts a long time ago if they knew they weren't going to be able to reach an agreement. They could have also selected an arbitrator to set the price and then not taken up public court room time. But I guess they couldn't even agree on that sort of a process.

Erickson tried to bring an arbitrator in and Apple refused his/her decision

 

[WrQth]

Nicely put. Except one glaring exception. Ericsson is asking for a FRAND rate for the patents; not more. They've also offered to have the courts decide the rate.

"Ericsson has been attempting to license its standard-essential patents with Apple on terms that are fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory (FRAND)"

Apple doesn't want to pay FRAND rates. Apple wants to pay less.

Other than that tiny, little, minuscule exception you're right on point.

----------



Ericsson offered the exact solution you're suggesting. Apple said no. The same answer they gave Nokia and Motorola in prior disputes.

----------



You should be embarrassed by your comment. Seriously, are you just joking?

Perhaps it is not the FRAND patents Ericsson has that Apple has a problem with but instead the ones even Apple says are not essential to LTE which Apple says Ericsson is asking too much for. Apple maybe leveraging the FRAND ones to get a better deal on the non-FRAND ones by not licensing any of Ericsson's patents.

Apple originally filed suit against Ericsson in January, arguing that it was demanding excessive royalties for patents not essential to LTE standards.

 

[BigInDallas]

Perhaps it is not the FRAND patents Ericsson has that Apple has a problem with but instead the ones even Apple says are not essential to LTE which Apple says Ericsson is asking too much for. Apple maybe leveraging the FRAND ones to get a better deal on the non-FRAND ones by not licensing any of Ericsson's patents.

Apple dont want to pay, no LTE for them. IF its not essential for LTE why use it in your phone? SOunds like Apple being a corporate bully.

 

[DTphonehome]

Does anyone even follows these patent lawsuits anymore? They're getting as tedious as the Steve Jobs movie rumors.

 

[Satan991]

Nope. No one cares. At all.

It's like rich privileged children fighting over being rich privileged children. If they suddenly get eaten by tigers, people might applaud. It would be a decent day.