Europe's answer to GPS

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by garybUK, Dec 28, 2005.

  1. garybUK Guest

    garybUK

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    #1
  2. Blue Velvet Moderator emeritus

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    #2
    And to pinpoint you.
     
  3. Counterfit macrumors G3

    Counterfit

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    #3
    I hope this is technologically superior. We don't need more useless stuff in orbit.
     
  4. cr2sh macrumors 68030

    cr2sh

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    Wow.. what a bunch of ****. GALILEO is a EU reaction to the war in Iraq.

    When Clinton turned off SA a few years ago, and WAAS opened up... suddenly 1 meter accuracy became commercially available. GPS took off and today the US holds a monopoly of this level of positioning... in times of war though, our government holds the right to jam the P-code... throwing L2 solutions out the door and producing errors somewhere in the 60meter range.

    The EU hates this, of course.. and wants their own constellation. The system will be well designed and will work well I'm sure... but let's not kid ourselves, they're easily 10 years out from having a system that works.

    In all practicality, I think they'd be better off (for the time being) using the FAA, the WAAS system.. by building some wide area ground reference stations.. and tie into the existing network. Putting 30 WRS' in the EU and launching 1 satellite would provide 1m accuracy for all of the EU. This plan was called ARTEMIS, and until the war in Iraq started it was going to be used... now the ESA is designing a completely new system... because they don't trust the US military.

    They speculate rather pessimistically about the future of GPS... but they're only masking the real purpose of this new system. A precise positioning system designed for the EU, just incase the US ever gets out of control.

    Welcome thread, to the political forum.

    :)
     
  5. After G macrumors 68000

    After G

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    #5
    Oh well, if Europe wants to blow money on duplicating already available GPS functionality as a "backup", let them go right ahead. GPS will be getting 1 cm accuracy by the time Galileo is up and running.
     
  6. cr2sh macrumors 68030

    cr2sh

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    1cm? Using post-processed baselines and 20 minute static observations I break into millimeters on a daily basis.

    In fact, WAAS reference stations are mandated by the FAA & NGS to be orthometrically accurate within 2mm relative to each other. This is the foundation of our system... and it's taken us 25 years to get here.

    Ah well.. it'll be nice having another option! :)
     
  7. dogsbody macrumors regular

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    #7
    Pleasing

    It'll be nice if we don't have to rely too much on the US for yet another thing.

    I didn't realise GPS was a US thing - thought it was just some Global free-for-all...then again, I live on an island that's only 20 sq. miles in area, with really rubbish GPS maps available and an even worse Google Earth coverage (we have thick clouds obscuring most of the island and the rest is really low res).

    In summary, I'm sort of glad the EU is doing their own thing, but I agree with any 'Big Brother' theories about their intentions...wonder if it could be touted as e-communism?

    The next biggest thing...?
     
  8. edesignuk Moderator emeritus

    edesignuk

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    #8
    No bad thing if you ask me. Not good having all your eggs in one basket and all that, especially when that basket belongs to someone else. (Speaking from an EU perspective, of course).
     
  9. mpw Guest

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    It's not like you really need SatNav in you car is it, most locals could find their way round with one hoof tied behind their back.
     
  10. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #10

    The problem with the US being able to turn off GPS at will means that all the billions invested in GPS technology are suddenly worthless. Ships, planes and trains and vehicles are in danger, scientific endeavors are rendered useless, etc, etc. It only makes sense to have a system in place that is not able to be held hostage by the whims of a warmongering country.

    It's not a matter of the EU "hating" this but a matter of EU cooperation in a field that is worth billions. As you might have noticed, the EU has been having problems lately and this is a way of touting EU unity and scientific achievement.

    Why are you so anti-Gallileo? or is it really anti-Europe?
     
  11. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    Of course our response will be that not only will we have to shut down GPS during key moments in a war, but we'll also need to shoot down the EU satellites.
     
  12. cr2sh macrumors 68030

    cr2sh

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    #12
    In fact, GPS technology would not be made "worthless" by the US government resurrected the Y-code encryption. Several techniques (codeless squaring, cross correlation and quasi-codeless tracking) were developed BEFORE select availability was ever turned off. Z-tracking is a technique that recovers the full wavelengths of the L1 and L2 carrier phases. Even if the US started jamming.. this technqiue could be implemented to recover an intact signal.

    This "system" you seek of being able to use GPS despite the US DoD, does not require you to launch a satellite. It requires a firmware update to your GPS recievers that would include a codeless solution technique. It could be running next week.

    As edesignuk said, it's never good having all your eggs in one basket and I fully agree. I've already helped foot the bill for 26 birds, 26 WRSs... I'm glad you guys have finally decided to step up to the plate.

    It'll be better for all at the table I'm sure, once you guys get it going.

    I think it's funny though that the ESA says "we're building this because the US system is all about military" when their system is being built for the same reason.
     
  13. tristan macrumors 6502a

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    #13
    I think Gallileo has a couple new features - it's not just a duplication. Like I think search and rescue features are new.

    Most things involving space are political and nationalistic (if you want to call the EU a nation) and a general waste of money. This seems better than most space initiatives I've heard of. I mean why is China lauching astronauts (or taikonauts) into space? Maybe they should be focusing on their environmental issues.
     
  14. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    More accurate than gatsos.
     
  15. superbovine macrumors 68030

    superbovine

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    China (India) is in it's own industrial revolution as their population and political landscapes moves. Looking at the population about through history countries in their stage of industrial revolution population was very high, but steadily dropped off as time went and as the population changed and progressed.

    I would also note, all the asian sub contractors that created parts for apples computer use the same lax industrial standards and cheap labor to keep cost down for apple so they can make a nice profit, and keep providing with our apple fix. When I was in University taking Computer Arch, I remember the professor flat stating that any of the gate designs we were working with would be made in Asia some place because of the lax environmental standards. In other words, the American companies are just as much to blame for this problem as the countries themselves. Although, economies and some poor family in china depending on the work in some highly populating factory to feed mouths puts a interesting twist.

    anyway, the point of the rant looking at historical figures the population will decreases with time because the economy and populations needs will change.
     
  16. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #16
    Don't scientist read science fiction? Don't they know where this stuff leads? I mean, I'm all for scientific breakthroughs, but the minute the government scientists (even the EU ones) get involved, suddenly everything has to be a weapon or spying or some other thing that's going to kill us all. What next? Giant robots that think but have no emotion, or ICE-9?
     
  17. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #17
    We've always been the means of our own downfall by demanding the services such efforts/corporations provide. Gallileo will provide accurate real time local information in a way that hasn't been seen before. Of course that means that whoever is watching via the satellites will also know where we are. The only way to stop it is to stop the demand and as corporations will be the ones who ultimately pay for it...

    My uncle who farms uses it on all his field equipment. It's especially valuable when seeding corn. He figures that his investment will have paid off in about 3 years due to the ultraprecision that translates into no wasted seed. It also reduces the amount of pesticides and fertilizer he has to use.

    Personally, I could mostly live without it but occasionally when I'm out bicycling in an area I've never been before, it could be very valuable.
     
  18. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #18
    So your Uncle is spying on his corn!?! See what I mean. Where will it end? First they come for the corn... then they start shooting people with lazer beams from the sky! They did the same thing on the X-Files. Wake up people!

    :eek: :p ;)
     
  19. mpw Guest

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    In Car Entertainment?
     
  20. tristan macrumors 6502a

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    So you think Gallileo is there to watch you? Where does that come from?
     
  21. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

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    Thing is, the satellites themselves cannot do this.

    Same deal with DirectTV's internet service. Broadband downloads, 56k uploads (via phone modem).
     
  22. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #22
  23. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #23
    The (internet) satellite dish here has a big warning sticker on it that says it will cook your brain if you stand in front of it due to the fact that it communicates two-ways with the satellite. No 56k uploads, there is two-way communication via satellite.

    I know it used to be the way you describe, and perhaps some systems still are, but not all of them.
     

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