Fear of Fraud come November...

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by blackfox, Jul 27, 2004.

  1. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #1
    From NYT op-ed piece...

    I find this pretty disturbing, especially in light of there being an actual example of vote-manipulation.

    Comments? Analyses? Rants? Dismissals?
     
  2. mischief macrumors 68030

    mischief

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    #2
    It would help if Citizens took their rights seriously.

    So long as we sit by and allow elections to be run without any real standards for security and rely on vendors to provide Lowest Bidder voting solutions this will be the case.
     
  3. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #3
    is it simply shoddy worksmanship, or is there something more sinister going on?
     
  4. blackfox thread starter macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #4
    It is difficult to say...still, I can comment on something by way of analogy:

    If you have a jewelery store in which the door is left unlocked...if it is robbed, is it the owner's (your) fault for not taking the measures to secure his business, or is it the opportunistic robber's who finds an open door to a opportunity for self-enrichment?

    OK, gotta stop with the bad analogies, but perhaps you get the idea...
     
  5. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #5
    not here. i'm quite certain much of this is by design.

    imo, one cannot dismiss the overwhelming percentages of disenfranchised democratic voters in FL as a statistical anomaly.
     
  6. blackfox thread starter macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #6
    ahh...so you were being rhetorical...well, I mean not sure as to the extent of how much was by design and how much by simple opportunity...also, if by design, who's design? Gov. Bush's, Florida's election commitee, the Florida GOP, The National GOP, the Bush Administration, the Electronic Voter machine Brass?...
     
  7. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #7
    yes, yes, yes, not sure, yes, yes
     
  8. mischief macrumors 68030

    mischief

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    #8
    Is there a third repetition in Florida?

    As terrible as it is to say this: Once is a mistake, twice is coincidence, three times is a pattern. Unless one of you can unearth a direct connection between the shoddy execution and the Gov. Bush StateHouse OR dig up a third repetition of this in FLorida under the same administration there is a tenuous case for the (obvious) machination model.

    Unfortunately the obvious choices (Kennedy was taken out by an alliance of his enemies, OJ Killed his wife or hired someone who did, etc.) are often the hardest to prove. In the case of a violation of Civil Rights En Masse we need PROOF.

    To those of you who have the time to research.... please dig deeply for cross-referenceable evidence of a third example.
     
  9. blackfox thread starter macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #9
    Well, there could of course be a third example come November...

    Just out of curiousity, if Florida does go GOP in November under perhaps questionable circumstances, what do you believe will be the reaction, course of action for resolving/clarifying the issue? (assuming Florida is again decisive in determining the Presidency)

    Supreme Court, law suits against Florida, civil suits?

    what might be the potential political fallout and media coverage of such a scenario?
     
  10. Chip NoVaMac macrumors G3

    Chip NoVaMac

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    #10
    Sort of like companies making money off of those that threaten our safety by running red lights. Why are not those jobs given to county or state employees, so that more money goes back to where it will do the most good.
     
  11. blackfox thread starter macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #11
    I couldn't decide whether to post here, or in Durandal's thread, as we both cover similar topics...but when in doubt, choose your own thread ;)

    Anyway, to add to the Florida situation, I read either yesterday or today in an OP-ED either in the NYT or WashPost (how's that for concise?), that Gov. Bush and the Florida GOP have been sending out notices to their party members to vote by absentee ballot come Nov. so that there will be a paper trail (if needed)

    ...do I need to connect the dots here?
     
  12. Colirio macrumors newbie

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    #12
    Honestly, there is voter fraud in every election. Dead people voting, missing ballots, etc. The reason this one became such a huge issue is because it was felt that it determined the outcome of the election in this case whereas the others were just "annoyances."

    There was no way that the GOP plotted anthing along these lines in Florida in the last election because there was no way of knowing that the decision would come down to that of Florida. Plus, it was actually Gore's team that registered the complaint and not Bush's team to start the whole fiasco. NOT TO MENTION that there were thousands of military ballots that were cast aside due to the policies that the military had been using since the 1950's.

    In any case, I think both conservatives and liberals (or whatver term we use nowadays) alike would agree that there will most likely be controversy in the next election in Florida due to political games. Each side will of course blame it on the other. LOL
     
  13. blackfox thread starter macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #13
    Well, first of all, cynically noting that there is always voter fraud does nothing to address the fact that there needs to be some attempt at fixing said problem.

    I don't want to get into the dispute over the 2000 election and Florida...I feel it was a little shady, others don't...either way it is water under the bridge...EXCEPT that it should've enacted meaningful ballot reform for elections, which it hasn't...and computerized voting machines are actually a step backwards in my opinion...oh, and any political strategist would've told you that Florida would play a decisive role in the 2000 election (as indeed it did) so there was room for purposeful manipulation...

    Regardless, I am talking about the 2004 Election, and the activities of the Florida government do raise an eyebrow as to some shady goings on, which should worry anyone with a vested interest in our representative Democracy, even if Florida may not be as decisive as it was in 2000. This is beyond Partisan into the very heart of our Political system. I feel someone needs to be held accountable, and that media attention should be focused on this now, not later in a post-election chaos...
     
  14. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #14
    Ehh ... please explain to me how Gore calling for a recount started the deletion of thousands of eligible voters from the voting rolls months earlier? What am I missing?
     
  15. Colirio macrumors newbie

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    #15
    I wasn't saying that Gore SHOULDN'T have called for a recount. I was saying that it was his team that initialized the recount due to a faulty system. There were plenty of other places of interest, too from both parties that should have demanded reforms in the ballot system but didn't and nobody cared about THOSE discrepencies. Showed to me that BOTH parties were simply thinking about one thing only and it wasn't to ensure fairness.

    And Gore didn't start the deletion of votes and neither did Bush. That was what PROMPTED them to call for a recount initially was what I was trying to suggest.


    And Blackfox, you are absolutely correct that it should have prompted a reform in the system. However, even with the reform, I still contend that there will be a discrepency of some kind, somewhere; perhaps even in another state. Now that it has been shown to be a corruptible source that can harbor doubts, I think many people will exploit it not only by using it to corrupt the voting methods, but, by also accusing the opposing party of doing so. I tend to think it opened a new avenue of doubt and blame in which to play politics.
     
  16. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #16
    If your point is that Gore should have asked for a statewide recount from the beginning, then I think you are right. The irony is that only through a statewide recount would Gore have won the vote.

    However, you miss the point that it was through the system set up by Jeb Bush and Ms. Harris that the voters, mostly those in Florida's black communities, were deprived of their legal right to vote. They were denied that right in many thousands - more than enough to have swung the vote to the Governor's brother. You are far to ready to dismiss these facts, it seems to me, when if it had occurred in any other nation we would be calling "fraud" from the rooftops.
     
  17. blackfox thread starter macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #17
    <on a rooftop> Riiiiicolaaaaa...ahem...FRAUD...<on a rooftop>
     
  18. Sayhey macrumors 68000

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    #18
    where is that "rimshot" sound effect when you need it? :p
     
  19. Colirio macrumors newbie

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    #19
    Well, I don't want to get into a whole discussion of this either, but, when they called for African-Americans who had supposedly been denied the right to vote, amazingly they were never able to produce a single witness to whom this had happened...
     
  20. Chip NoVaMac macrumors G3

    Chip NoVaMac

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    #20
    This from a campaign that faces a vote in a state that is controlled by his brother.

    What surprises me is that some say that Jeb is the heir to G.w. in the White House. How he has mismanaged Florida, I can't see how the American people could vote for him. But then again, the voting public should be checked for intelligence.
     
  21. Chip NoVaMac macrumors G3

    Chip NoVaMac

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    #21
    Blackfox, sometime we don't agree. In this case I think we do.

    I was taught in my day (I am now just 46 (July 25)), that you commit a felony you lose the right to vote. I understand that this was done to be a deterrent to committing a crime. But there was a moment in our history that wanted to make an even bigger statement.

    Maybe the solution is to have felons "prove" that they are worthy to vote. Holding a "long term" job. No further crimes, even misdemeanors. Also giving back to the community.
     
  22. blackfox thread starter macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #22
    I don't think intelligence is the issue...it is one of Integrity and moral fiber...I know you are referring to the public as opposed to the candidates, but I hold the former less to blame than the latter who willfully manipulate the perceptions of the former (that wasn't unwieldy).

    The human mind and perceptual apparati cannot keep evolutionary pace with technological advancements, and it is still a natural tendency to believe what you see and read, both from a instinctual and cultural level.

    Am I getting too pseudo-intellectual here?
     
  23. Chip NoVaMac macrumors G3

    Chip NoVaMac

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    #23
    And as long as we remain divided as a nation as to what we need in a leader, we will have more Florida's in our future. Though to be honest, to me it appears that Jeb is trying to stack the deck to his brothers and the RNC's advantage.
     
  24. Chip NoVaMac macrumors G3

    Chip NoVaMac

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    #24
    I can't quote the news sources that counters your comments, but can you?
     
  25. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #25
    Really? Where do you get your (bad) info from?

    http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/03/09/florida.election/
     

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