First George, Now The Pope.....(on gay marriage)

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Mr. Anderson, Jul 31, 2003.

  1. Moderator emeritus

    Mr. Anderson

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    #1
  2. macrumors 65816

    idea_hamster

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    #2
    This is one of those issues where lots of people think that the "answer" is simple, obvious and needs no explanation -- a position that always gives me the creeps.

    (Hmmm...I may have to go back to my old sig. line: "The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser men so full of doubts" -- B. Russell.)
     
  3. macrumors 65816

    Ambrose Chapel

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    #3
    I loved that sig - I even copied the quote into my quotes file. :)

    Back on-topic, I don't understand what is so threatening to these people about same-sex marriage. Do they think that if it is legally sanctioned, then everyone will abandon traditional marriage?

    As for the argument that it is unfair to children, I'd much rather see a child raised by a loving, same-sex family, then a traditional one where the child is neglected or worse...
     
  4. macrumors 68040

    jxyama

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    #4
    i agree in principle, but in reality, if the child could help it, he/she probably wouldn't want to be the front-runner, breaking down the stigma attached to having two "moms" or "dads."

    it's a tough call - traditional family not taking care of the kid properly or a non-traditional family that will take care of the kid but the kid being a target of ridicule and traumatized by friends and others.

    i hope in the future, both will be taken care of and the child (who really don't have much choice at birth or adoption) will be fine in either case - that all families (traditional or otherwise) take care of the kids and society at large would be blind to the family composition...

    (words "traditional" and "non-traditional" were not used to pass judgement.)
     
  5. macrumors G3

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    #5
    god the Vatican don't half get on my t*ts... what a bunch of homophobic, sad old men!!

    I think they should spend alittle more time sorting out the actions of members of their organisation to children, before they even begin to pontificate about immoral, unnatural and harmful behaviour.
     
  6. macrumors regular

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    #6
    It's almost as if people in the U.S. do not want to live in a free society.
     
  7. macrumors P6

    wdlove

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    #7
    I think that the Church should be allowed to hold it's members to high moral standards. If a person doen't like the teachings of the Church, they are free to leave. We have a new Archbishop here in Boston, Sean Patrick O'Malley the 6th to hold that positon. From what I've heard about him. he's sincere in his convictions. This is his 3rd assignment to cleanup the clergy sexual abuse crisis.

    Moral beliefs is what hold a society together.
     
  8. macrumors 68000

    agreenster

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    #8
    This implies that same-sex parents will abuse their children less than hetero-sexual parents will. I think that is a false assumption.

    I doubt allowing same-sex marriages/parents will eliminate child abuse in this country.

    I think we would ALL like to see healthy family units without abuse (child or spousal), but that solution starts in the individual, not in a law. The crap we feed ourselves as humans (first) and as Americans (second) through media and social morals doesn't seem to help the problem either.
     
  9. macrumors G3

    QCassidy352

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    #9
    ah, herein lies the problem. How is gay marraige a "moral" issue? There is an assumption in this society that matters of sexuality, and especially homosexuality, are necessarily issues of morality, and I just don't accept that.

    Further, the church certainly can hold members to any standard they like. but holding people to those teachings within the church and trying to use the influence of the church as an institution to alter the political landscape are quite different.

    "It's almost as if people in the U.S. do not want to live in a free society."

    Seems that the majority of americans like to *talk* about freedom, not actually have it.
     
  10. macrumors 68020

    Moxiemike

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    #10
    No same sex marriage... but how many years did they tolerate the pedophillic, child ****ing priests? I guess that's ok since only a pedophile would want a job like that....it's tailor made to child abusers (though some good priests exist, and are stigmatized by this scandal)

    What a sick sick religion. Catholicism is big business these days though....

    I think the pope should be stoned by all the men who had a priest's c*** in their mouth at age 12 or whatever.

    Sick religion.

    (a bad word subverted the system. i edited it out)
     
  11. macrumors 65816

    Ambrose Chapel

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    #11

    Oh of course, I didn't mean to imply that such abuse would never happen under same-sex marriage, but it's also a false assumption that a healthy child can only be reared by male-female parents. That was my original objection.
     
  12. macrumors regular

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    #12
    Probably does not do gay men any justice that all the child molestations were done by male priests on boys. Just adds in the gay factor on this deviancy in the eyes of the upper rung of power.
     
  13. macrumors 65816

    idea_hamster

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    #13
    NPR had an excerpt from one of his addresses that I found very touching: He said (and I paraphrase) that the homeless schizophrenic who can't get medication and claims that he is Jesus Christ is, in fact, Jesus Christ but in a disturbing disguise -- his point being that it is up to us to accept, aid, and care for even the most disturbing among us.

    I'm not sure what his position is on same-sex marriage -- which is part of the problem that religions face: they tend to be all-or-nothing propositions.
     
  14. macrumors regular

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    #14
    Bunch of crap

    The Catholic church looks really stupid trying to dictate morality to people after the deluge of reports about the pedophilic-priest shell games. I'm a straight male, and I feel that two people of legal age who love each other should be allowed to join in a legal, publicly-recognized union-- whether both are of the same sex or not.

    <rant>
    I was raised Catholic and suffered through twelve years of having all that nonsense shoved down my throat in Catholic school. As soon as my mother died and there was nobody to drag me to mass every Sunday, I stopped going. And if I hadn't then, this business with the altar boy-screwing would have disgusted me enough to stop now.

    These days, I guess you could say that I waver between agnostic and atheist, though I don't really think about it much anymore except to regard the entire concept of organized religion with fresh scorn when people killing over religious differences makes the news. Religion gave us the Holocaust. Religion is why the middle east is a shambles. And religion is what brought down the WTC.

    Oftentimes the most sanctimonious of the bible-thumper set are the biggest scoundrels and hypocrites you'll ever come across.

    Mankind would be much better served if people listened to their common sense instead of whatever particular big, invisible man in the sky they happen to prefer.
    </rant>

    Go ahead and flame me if you must, but that's my opinion.

    ~Philly
     
  15. macrumors 68020

    Moxiemike

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    #15
    Re: Bunch of crap

    Anyone who flames you has they're head firmly planted up their arse. You're right on my friend. Right on.

    Just go talk to any anti-abortion radical.
     
  16. macrumors 6502

    FriarTuck

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    #16
    Why just any two people? Why two? Why not three? Why not twenty?

    Don't harsh my mellow with your oppressive legalisms, man.
     
  17. macrumors G3

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    #17
    Re: Bunch of crap

    Phewy... damn I wish I was a little more vocal in my original post, I had visions of being sliced and diced for my sins!!! heh-heh!!

    I find the church, but in particular the vatican and their total blind faith and ignorance truly astounding!!

    I have no intention of flaming you, because I'm stood next to you nodding in agreement... ;)
     
  18. macrumors 68020

    Moxiemike

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    #18
    Re: Re: Bunch of crap

    man iGav, you always have interesting stuff to say (plus good taste) so you SHOULD rant away! :)

    I wanna hear it! go!
     
  19. macrumors 68040

    jxyama

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    #19
    i think organized religion has its place in the society provided:

    1) it leads to more people living a generally better life

    2) it doesn't practically brainwash people to the point they can't make their own decisions

    3) the source of belief (Bible, Quran, etc.) won't be twisted to justify obviously immoral behavior (murders and wars, mostly)

    4) kept strictly personal and made public to others when inquired

    5) the congregation doesn't use it's collective power to push a public agenda for their sole benefit.

    one of my worst peeves is when a christian fanatic rants away in public how "non-believers" will go to "hell," in clear violation of #4 above, as far as i'm concerned.

    another fanatic behavior i hate is conservative mid-western christians pushing for creationism to be taught in public schools. believe whatever you like, but creationism is not a scientific theory. it should not be taught in a science class like biology.

    i think it basically comes to respect. people with one type of beliefs should respect the fact others may not share the same beliefs or don't believe in much of anything.
     
  20. macrumors 68020

    Moxiemike

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    #20
    Unfortunately, if going by this, catholicism is COMPLETELY in the wrong on many accounts. Let's look at the USA today. I'll answer each of your 1-4 statements in regards to the US.

    1) Let's see....hmmm. Many Americans are catholic. By far the pre-dominant "religion"in the States. We have a horrid literacy rate, a VERY poor unemployment, corporations raping their employees, priests raping children, men raping women, kids shooting teachers, etc. etc. etc. In a country that's "one nation under god" we're pretty devilish. :)

    2) The anti-abortionalists who believe that they'll go to hell for kiliing and child and don't believe that their daughters are getting drunk, smoking weed and having crazy unprotected sex. They're brainwashed by one of the beliefs catholicism has pounded into their heads.

    3) Well, we invaded Iraq. And bush keeps referring to god in speeches. Does that count? We're killing people and having our people killed, in honor of this "one nation under god" bull.

    4) How about sporting events with bible quotes on posterboard? How about the ten commandments being immortalized in bronze on my city's county courthouse? How about all the little religious pamphlets that get passed out to me at random café's. And how abotu the people who tell me i'll go to hell if I don't take them. How about the Quecreek Miners telling me all about how god's grace saved them while they're suing their employers? That's not very christlike... what about turning the other cheek? Eh? How about the catholic church telling my gay friends they can't be married. etc etc etc

    America... is ruled almost as much by religion as we are by fast food and reality TV.
     
  21. zim
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    zim

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    #21
    I am not Catholic but, surprisingly I find my life to be governed by the very thing that I am not. If I wish to engage in a relationship with another, regardless as to what sex they may be, I will do so. If that relationship evolves into a bonding or commitment then it will. If I wish to make a pledge to that person, just as one does in a marriage, then I will. No law, be it state, constitutional, or even some religion that I am not even a part of, is going to prevent me from doing what I feel is right. I strongly feel that this is the way others will act, regardless if a law tells them not to. No, their "marriage" will not be "legal" but what defines a marriage? A marriage is a commitment between two people. I have been with my soon to be wife for 10 years, neither of us need a wedding to justify our love and commitment. We are however, having a wedding, October in fact, but it is for the pure pleasure of being together and celebrating our commitment and love. I feel sad that there are people that would stop at nothing from allowing others, regardless of the arrangement, from having the same happiness.

    I strongly disagree with the manner in which the president voiced his opinion on the subject. The Catholic church should not be an influenced as to how the president acts publicly and address us as a country.

    As the bill of rights reads, All are created equal. That is all I need to know.

    I think that with all the recent happenings around the Catholic church, they feel as if they need to make some noise. I also feel that yet again Bush is leading us off in the other direction while he sets up some other tactic in another.
     
  22. macrumors 65816

    Ambrose Chapel

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    #22
    this echoes my earlier post:

    Again, why are they so scared that legally recognizing same-sex marriages will destroy heterosexual marriages?

    Also, philly, I agree with your rant

    http://www.boston.com/dailynews/212/wash/Bush_says_he_is_exploring_lega:.shtml
     
  23. macrumors 65816

    Ambrose Chapel

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    #23
    Actually Protestantism is the dominant religion...I believe that every president but JFK has been Protestant of some variety...

    Like this quote from that article I linked to:

    ''I am mindful that we're all sinners, and I caution those who may try to take the speck out of the neighbor's eye when they got a log in their own,'' the president said, invoking a biblical passage from the Gospel of St. Matthew.
     
  24. macrumors regular

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    #24
    Funny how we blame the entire Catholic faith for the evils of certain preists. Funny how we trash God or whatever deity is out there whenever we think He/She might restrict our lives. Funny how we preach free speech and living free, but when someone from the church has an opinion, we kick and scream and wonder why they even have a say-so.

    I'm not Catholic, but I am Baptist which might make me pretty scarry to some of the people on these boards. To say that the Catholic Church should have no say so in this or any matter is a joke. They have an agenda just like every oraganization in the world including the Gay community. Don't talk about living free and then trash the Church for having an opinion and pushing their agenda.

    Don't want to live by any moral code? Then don't. I personally am glad we have them. Thy shall not kill. Does that bother you? Maybe we should do away with that as well.

    And finally, someone said Religion caused the Holocaust and other terrible events. WRONG. Hitler gave us the Holocaust. Are we are blaming religion again for the sins of the few? Looks that way to me.
     
  25. macrumors G3

    QCassidy352

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    #25
    ok, let me repeat what I said earlier: how is gay marraige a moral issue? How is it part of a moral code? In short, *where is the issue of morality here??*

    "Thou shalt not kill" is not the same. Killing does harm to another person, and hence is immoral. Gay marraige does harm to no one. There's no comparision.

    edit:
    No, it's not funny, and it's not irrational either. The Catholic Church is a structured hierarchy, and there was a SYSTEMATIC effort to cover up the "evils of certain priests." This was not just a few rouge priests. Very highly placed church officials concealed and were otherwise accessory to this misconduct even if they themselves were not guilty of it. Even when the whole thing broke the Church continued to hide and cover. And it came from the highest levels. Therefore although we cannot blame the faith per se, nor the average Catholic on the street, it is entirely reasonable and necessary to blame the church as an institution.
     

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