Free Speech, not in France.

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Voltron, Jun 10, 2004.

  1. Voltron macrumors newbie

    Voltron

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    #1
    Both France and Canada has similar laws, where you are not aloud to publicly declare your beliefs if they are against the official PC belief. They call it hate. Here in America we have freedom of speech not to protect those who say things you don't mind them saying but to protect those who say things you don't want to hear or even hate hearing. It is a form of brainwashing, or attempting to control the thoughts of their society by using such laws limiting free speech. Yes it can be argued that some speech must be limited like yelling fire in a movie theater, I don't believe this reaches that caliber.
    I argued this point in another forum and those who argued for these laws argued that it is wrong to promote violence. She isn't promoting violence I don't think she simply stated what she believed.
     
  2. numediaman macrumors 6502a

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    #2
    Slyhunter will defend any kind of hate speech (not to mention torture):

    Tears, New Race-Hate Trial for France's Bardot
    Thu May 6, 2:57 PM ET

    PARIS (Reuters) Bardot, 69, previously convicted of similar offences, is on trial over her book "A Scream in the Silence," an outspoken attack on gays, immigrants and the jobless which shocked France.

    Of her prose style, Bardot said, "I'm not Balzac," a reference to the 19th century French literary great. That drew a wry, "The court had noticed," from the presiding judge.

    In her book, the former film idol attacks homosexuals as "fairground freaks," condemns the presence of women in government and denounces the "scandal of unemployment benefit." She also criticized the "Islamization of France" -- which has a five million strong Muslim minority -- and the "underground and dangerous infiltration of Islam."

    So, according to Sly, we should bash the French (again) because they don't like hate speech, won't back an illegal war, and because their cuisine makes our food tastes look positively neanderthal (I made that part up).
     

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  3. Voltron thread starter macrumors newbie

    Voltron

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    #3
    So the only kind of free speech you want is the Politically correct type well in that case we wouldn't need that amendment to protect our free speech rights.
     
  4. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #4
    It is too easy for Americans to jump to judgments about these kinds of laws in Europe. They have similar laws in Germany. We have such a short historical memory that we forget that a generation ago millions were butchered all over Europe in the name of racial hatred. We can argue, and I think we have a good case, for more freedom of political expression, but it should be done humbly from a country that did not go through the maelstrom of the Nazi occupation. Of course, it is ironic that many of those who are the quickest to criticize the French and other Europeans for these laws are the first to deny the right of dissent against this President.
     
  5. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    Is there a guarantee in France of the right to free speech in the way our constitution grants us in the US?
     
  6. Voltron thread starter macrumors newbie

    Voltron

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    #6
    Both Canada and Germany have similar anti hate laws. I don't know about their constitution myself.
     
  7. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #7
    Huh? That's not what I asked at all. :confused:
     
  8. Sayhey macrumors 68000

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    #8
    The answer is yes. Here is the preamble of the Constitution of 1958 (the current one.)

    Here is the Declaration of 1789

    For reference purposes here is the Preamble of the 1946 Constitution.
     
  9. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #9
    Thanks Sayhey.

    I'm guessing that there are also some laws involved that we Americans aren't familiar with. Before I'd condemn the French for this I'd want to read up on how French courts have interpreted their laws.
     
  10. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #10
    I'm sure you're right that there is much here that we Americans are unfamiliar with. As I said in my first post, I think we don't take into account the history of the Nazi occupation and its impact on the French view of this. As always mac, it is refreshing to hear a sane voice on the subject that calls for more information before rushing to judgment.
     
  11. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #11
    France has laws? They've got a lot of nerve, those French.
     
  12. Neserk macrumors 6502a

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    #12
    When the US was in its early infancy wasn't the concept of free speech new?

    Or was I misled by my history teachers? It seems to me that we were the first modern nation to have the right to call our government morons. No?

    Oh, -- my point. That France, the UK, and many European nations do not have free speech. I don't know about the rest of the world. My education on "the world" is limited :eek:
     
  13. blackfox macrumors 65816

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    Excellent post(s) Sayhey...I might add to the discussion, that the influx of a Muslim population is something that the EU and it's constituent countries probably fear. As Western Europe continues integration in the form of the EU, it is interesting to note that the membership is almost exclusively Traditionally Western...Christian (non-Orthodox), Rule-of-law, Democracies etc. (with the exception of Greece, and Cyprus). On one hand, I am sure France and the EU at large is wary of the destabilizing and costly effects of immigration from a culture who is generally less well-educated and poorer, but definitely culturally at odds with their host countries with regards to Religion, values, and mores. It is for these rather valid reasons that Turkey may never gain entrance to the EU, and why Bulgaria and Romania may also not (Orthodox/Byzantine Culture). It is also why Greece has often proved a troublesome anomaly in EU affairs (violated UN sanctions against Serbs[also Orthodox] and Macedonian blockade) and may head towards the periphery...
    The point of all this is, that as Europe moves to more tightly intergrate itself based on commonality of Culture, minority culture can prove to be a potentially volatile threat. While Western values often encourage individual rights and freedoms, I believe it has to be very careful in dealing with a minority so at odds culturally, so as not to incite more devisiveness than already exist, especially not any violent reactions. So France must navigate a path of stable co-existence and possible integration with the Muslim minority, while still (rightfully) defending it's cultural values. It's decisiveness on the head-scarf issue was case in point - Cultural questions such as this do not lend themselves to compromise...neither French Authorities nor Muslim parents would approve a rule of Muslim
    girls wearing a head-scarf every other day...they involve a yes-or-no, a zero sum choice.

    So as the EU strives to define itself, it must define what it is not, or in opposition to...which is Islamic Culture (among others), yet stay true to it's values which allow for inclusiveness and respect for all cultures. France, as a core state of the EU (along with Germany) has to take this dichotomy very seriously...and I believe the limiting of disruptive, hateful rhetoric is the right choice in the interests of itself and the Union...

    I have no comments about the anti-gay remarks, except for that same tendency to view that which is foreign and different with distrust and a tendency to confirm ones' own values in opposition to theirs...

    Or Bridget could just be off her rocker...
     
  14. Sayhey macrumors 68000

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    LOL, there is that! She is a supporter of the far right National Front (Jean-Marie Le Pen's party.) This is akin to supporting David Duke or ex-Judge Moore. While I wouldn't advocate taking away the free speech of either of these two "gentlemen," I wouldn't advocate letting either of them get close to the levers of power either.

    edit: for those unfamiliar with Le Pen's politics (and by extension Bardot's) here is a bio from the ADL.
     
  15. takao macrumors 68040

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    #15
    hm last time i checked there where laws against discrimination (at least here), if your 'free speech' discriminate someone then your breaking the (in some cases constitutional) law and can be punished....

    i don't know what this thread is about... looks correct for me
     
  16. edesignuk Moderator emeritus

    edesignuk

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    #16
    The UK doesn't have free speech? :confused: :eek:
     
  17. dopefiend macrumors 6502

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    #17
    Not to the extent that the U.S. does. :p
     
  18. edesignuk Moderator emeritus

    edesignuk

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    #18
    You are joking right??
     
  19. dopefiend macrumors 6502

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    #19
    Well no. I thought thats what was being explained :confused:
     
  20. Ugg macrumors 68000

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    You are allowed in France, to say things aloud http://forums.macrumors.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

    Different countries have every reason to write laws about what constitutes hate. Here in the US we still allow the kkk to exist and spout its vile message. That to me is hate speech and should not be allowed. We also permit neo Nazi groups whereas Germany and Austria don't.

    BB is a mouthy, racist, zenophobic pig.

    Why is it sly, that you think she is only expressing her beliefs but the moment that religious symbols are banned from the classroom it is proof that the French are vile human beings that shouldn't be allowed to walk the face of the earth? You can't have it both ways unless of course, all speech is allowed in all forms with no limitations. Get real and stop bashing the french just because boortz does.
     
  21. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #21
    We established earlier (thanks to Sayhey) that the French have a right to free speech just as we do. I would imagine Britain is similar.
     
  22. Voltron thread starter macrumors newbie

    Voltron

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    #22
    Freedom of speech and freedom of Religion. Its not either or, what is wrong with having both? Just because I think there should be freedom of Religion does not mean I'm against freedom of speech or visa versa. You seem to think they counter each other when they don't. And I don't do things just because Boortz does.
     
  23. Lyle macrumors 68000

    Lyle

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    #23
    Yes, the difference seems to be the condition (as noted in Sayhey's earlier post) that those free speakers are "... subject to responsibility for the abuse of this freedom in the cases ... determined by law." And as you (mactastic) subsequently pointed out, the laws that define "abuse" of free speech are apparently quite different from country to country.

    One might consider it a question of semantics to say that a group of people has the right to free speech, as long as they don't say things that are abuses of free speech. I think it's reasonable to say that free speech in the U.S. is "more free" than it is in other countries. Obviously, this means that you're more likely to hear things that might offend you, but I think I prefer it to the alternative of the government telling me what is and isn't "hate speech".
     
  24. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #24
    Just so long as we don't SEE anything that might offend us eh?... cough janetsnipple.... :p

    I dunno, if money is consedered speech, why can't breasts be?
     
  25. radhak macrumors regular

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    #25
    I am not aware of any other country that pays so much reverence to free speech as the US. I personally feel it is over-emphasized and mis-placed, but that’s me. And I can say that, can’t I, under the free-speech act? ;)
    Somehow I cannot understand how insulting others, saying they are ‘freaks’ is something to defend whole-heartedly.

    Okay, conceptually, that is the acme of freedom per-se, but you need to take a ‘chill-pill’ when it comes to ground reality. Take this scenario : in some muslim-predominant third-world country, when (if) this book is released, somebody starts ‘these christian writers are insulting us’, which triggers off a christian-targetted riot and innocent people (or whatever religion) die. To douse this (sometimes even in anticipation), the local government bans the book. I think that would be a perfectly logical thing to do, and dang freedom of speech. In countries that have scarce resources for law-and-order situations, anything that adds to the volatility is totally unwelcome. And if you are smugly happy that such a situation would never arise in the US, I only have to say ‘Rodney King riots’. Different situation, but just as emotionally-triggered and uncontrollable.

    On the other hand, I teach my toddler to be nice and not insult others. If she sees another girl in a hair setup or dress she thinks is weird, she better not say it out aloud. Or should I believe in her freedom of speech and allow her to talk as she thinks? If you denigrate ‘PC’, then what is PC here : celebrating the US constitution, or minor social norms?
     

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