Germany:court speaks out arrest warrants against 13 CIA agents because of kidnapping

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by takao, Jan 31, 2007.

  1. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #1
    http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,463415,00.html

    only in german so i will sum up quickly:
    german-libanese Khaled el-Masri got kidnapped in Macedonia and flown to Afghanistan for interrogation (i wrote about it before here on macrumors)

    now the court has spoken out and it's a first in german history: it's the first arrest warrant against cia agents (including pilots,doctors and commando unit responsible for the kidnapping)

    help for identification came from italian and spanish prosecutors and european parliament

    but as was to expect no support from the US just like in the italian case in milan where a process is running against 26 americans involving former members of the US embassy
    none of them appeared in front of court there either
     
  2. Swarmlord macrumors 6502a

    Swarmlord

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    #2
    Hmmm. I'd be more interested in knowing what the agents thought was so important about this guy to cause them to go to so much trouble to interrogate him in another country.
     
  3. Motley macrumors 6502

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    #3
    Hopefully he did more than Maher Arar
     
  4. takao thread starter macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #4
    the US refuses to comment on it but he said that towards him they said he was kidnapped because of a similar name

    to make it even better: they refuse him to enter the US so he can't sue in front of an american court

    so much for "... and justice for all"
     
  5. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #5
    It's about time someone stood up and called the Americans on their illegal renditions. One can only hope that the CIAs activities will be severely curtailed as a result.
     
  6. Punani macrumors regular

    Punani

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    #6
    Proof?

    I don't disagree with the fact that the US is a practitioner of extraordinary rendition. I'm more concerned with the ability to prove that the US does this with any success. I find it hard to believe that most of the people who are going to be charged with these kidnappings believe that they are not doing what is in the national interest of the US.

    Furthermore, there is also the question if the German courts are going to even raise the issue of extraordinary rendition, or will this be strictly limited to the kidnapping indictments?
     
  7. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #7
    Just think we use to be a Nation of Laws,Liberty & Freedom and a example to the world, then Bush & his draft dodgers took over & the rest is now history. Congress still isnt going to do any oversite because of politics. 911 was used as a power grab and little else, our very own mexican border is a prime example. All Bush & his buddies had to do was acuse someone and presto automatic guilty without evidence,no trial etc. Im sure we will hear of more abuses.

    We have a federal govt out of control and it doesnt seem to answer to anyone but George, hence the mess we are in.
     
  8. takao thread starter macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #8
    well the actually arrest warrant doesn't call it "kidnapping" it's called "Freiheitsberaubung" (which literally translates to "theft of freedom")
    and it also includes "schwere Körperverletzung" which translates to "heavy attack on health"

    combined that could lead up to 20 years as a maximum but since he didn't get handicapped or something like that through injuries it might be less

    if the americans call it kidnapping or "extraordinary rendition" doesn't matter since it's still considered "theft of freedom" and it took longer than 1 week thus increased punishment

    actually a german TV channel found out the current location of some of the agents in question through there recherche: 3 of them are living in north carolina at the moment and 2 of them signed an insurance against court/lawyer costs recently so i guess they aren't that sure that they will get "coverage" from the government...
     
  9. Motley macrumors 6502

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    #9
    What would be the irony of those guys being snatched in the night and flown to Germany?

    Or better yet, if their defense in a German court was that they were just following orders?
     
  10. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #10
    Well, whatever happens, they'll never be vacationing in the EU again. EU countries have internal extradition laws so even if they never set foot in Germany, they'll take a big risk stepping foot outside of North America.

    While I doubt they'll ever be prosecuted, I hope this turns into a big, stinky misthaufen. One so smelly that bushco is forced to leave the WH.
     
  11. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #11
    You're supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. They had to let him go because they had nothing on him. Actually, that's happened to quite a few of those who were kidnapped and tortured (ironically) in the name of freedom. I'm amazed that people automatically seem to assume just because we've captured them they must be guilty even if we've provided no proof they actually did anything. Even after we let them go because it turns out they didn't do anything. Guess because they aren't American they don't deserve rights. Last I checked, everyone gets rights or no one does.

    Imagine if someone tried to do that to an American.
     
  12. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #12
    You don't have to imagine. Just ask Jose Padilla.

    A man who has been tortured by his captors to the point that he is a mental wreck, and then denied the opportunity to testify about his treatment in court specifically because he's been deemed a mental wreck.
     
  13. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #13
    I actually meant if another country did it to one of our people. Bad enough an enemy, but even an ally. Apparently, it's ok if we do it to our own. :rolleyes:
     
  14. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #14
    That's part of it. The other part is WHO you do it to. Do it to someone who you're told is al Qaeda and it's perfectly acceptable to broad swaths of Americans. Do the exact same thing to an American -- even an American guilty of trying to stir up trouble against whatever government -- and you can be sure that many Americans would change their tune.

    Imagine random Americans kidnapped off the streets of a foreign country, taken to another country against their will with no legal recourse, and held incommunicado for years before finally being released without charge. Oh and they confirm the rumors of harsh treatment and abuse that have swirled during their detention.

    I'm sure Americans would understand that whatever country it was had the right to take measures like that to protect itself. [/SARCASM]

    Of course not, they'd flip their lid. Just as an example, we flattened a city because four of our contractors were killed in an ugly way. But of course now there are rules of engagement allowing US soldiers to kill Iranians deemed a threat. It's the American double standard again...
     

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