get a salary cap in baseball

Discussion in 'Community' started by jefhatfield, Feb 14, 2003.

  1. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2000
    #1
    on average, every four years one team wins the world series...the new york yankees

    is it the bronx, or the water in new york, or the famous pinstripes?

    no, the team has more money and outspends the next richest team, the mets, by 20 million dollars (espn)
     
  2. strider42 macrumors 65816

    strider42

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    Feb 1, 2002
    #2
    Re: get a salary cap in baseball

    a salaray cap will never exist in baseball. The players union would never allow it, and they are very, very strong.

    Frankly a salaray cap doesn't solve problems necessarily anyway. I think the way it works in the NFL for instance is horrible. Teams change so much year to year because of the salaray cap. a player staying with a team his whole career, or even a good portion of it, is a rarity nowadays. Its also extraodinarily complicated for fans to understand. i don't like it. The NBA version is better, but its not perfect either. salary caps just aren't the great equalizer people think they are and they are often bad for fans because they lose out on watching players being with the same team for a long time.

    I think baseball has a lot of good things. Draft picks for losing free agents I think is a brilliant way to keep smaller markets team stocked with talent for instance. the luxury tax is a pretty decent compromise on a salaray cap of sorts, though the threshhold shuold have been set lower than it was.

    And remember, its still going to come down to management. Nobody bitched about the yankees in the years form 1982 through 1994 in whcih they didn't win anything. what the yankees are good at is putting a good team together and then winning with that team over and over again. Loo at their history. they tend to win all thsoe championships in bunches. So while it may average out to once every 4 years, the reality of the situation is that many years the yankees don't even have a chance. its only recent history that makes people think they yankees are invincible because of their money. COnsidering that the majority of their teams that one those world series in the 90's were home grown players or players gotten in trades, I don't relaly have a problem with them reqarding players who do well for them. They have recently started getting mroe and mroe free agents, and they haven't won a world series since doing so.

    So you see, the problem is often bad management by other teams rather than the yankees being a problem. Other teams overpay players who just aren't very good, and then get stuck witht eh contracts. They focus on the wrong things, they don't teach fundmanetals, develop youngsters or have an organizational philosphy. The poster childs for how sucessful these things can be is the oakland A's (yes, I'm from the bay area and a huge A's fan).

    The problem with baseball is not the yankees who pay good players. The problem is teams that pay mediocre to bad players too much and rely on the free agent market. Thats what shuts small market teams out from being able to sign some decent contributors.

    I think the yankees are in for a fall anyway. Anyone who thinks roger clemens is all that great anymore is delusional. He's good, but not a fantastic pitcher anymore. He never should have won that last cy young. He wasn't even the best pitcher on his team that year. Andy pettite hasn't been consistent, derek Jeter is way overrated (Read some of espn.com's analysis of his play, its very interesting. basiclaly, he's good, but Tejada, A-Rod and Nomar are in a totally different class offensively and defensively), Giambi is a defensive liability, their outfield never seems that sound apart from bernie williams, they lost mendoza, rivera may be starting to break down a bit. They'll be good this year and maybe for a few more years, but they may be in for some hard times in the future.

    Its going to take good management for them to be good in the future, not money.

    it almost pains me to not blame the yankees, since I'm an A's fan.
     
  3. jefhatfield thread starter Retired

    jefhatfield

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2000
    #3
    very compelling argument

    maybe the yanks do have great management

    whatever it is, if they used their fingers, toes, and anything else that stuck out as an appendage for world series rings, they would have rings left over:p
     
  4. wdlove macrumors P6

    wdlove

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    Oct 20, 2002
    #4
    If fans quit going to baseball game and paying homage to millionaires, there would be no need for a cap. They are just spoiled brats. After all it is just a game. Doctors, nurses, police, and teachers are much more valuable. Your life and that of your children has more value.
     
  5. jefhatfield thread starter Retired

    jefhatfield

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    Jul 9, 2000
    #5
    if people got paid according to their real worth, the blue collar workers would certainly make more

    a couple of people mentioned to me the most important person/people in new york city are the garbagemen...any one occupation taking a day off would not affect the city more than this occupation
     
  6. jelloshotsrule macrumors G3

    jelloshotsrule

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    #6
    baseball sucks. salary cap won't make it more exciting.... 9 innings of freaking boredom.
     
  7. jefhatfield thread starter Retired

    jefhatfield

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    Jul 9, 2000
    #7
    another terribly underpaid group of workers are the military...they put their life on the line for us and often cannot afford the rent/mortgage where their base is if they are married and live off base

    the base here used to pay a very large portion of outside rent but cutbacks made them able to pay less which made it that much more impossible

    with 23 golf courses around here, the real estate was just out of reach

    it used to be, as i have said once before at ford ord, any sergeant could afford a house in this golf course laden town

    then one had to be at least a captain

    then a colonel

    now, with the average house next to the base (former base) well over 500k, nobody could afford a house and rent is not exactly cheap, either

    and guess what...they all packed up (55,000 of them) and moved to ft. lewis, washington...i hope the rent and mortgages are better over there

    this to me is a microcosm of the class warfare which has been brewing for decades

    the people who protect our streets and nation (cops and military) should be given government subsidies to be able to afford the area they serve...the cops in my town drive ****ty cars (personal vehicles) and have to go to the laundrymat with its old machines...on any given sunday, the whole force is there along with some young people just starting out and the migrant workers
     
  8. wdlove macrumors P6

    wdlove

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    #8
    A very true statement, thanks. Fans should have to pay more of the cost of baseball, no funding from consumers or tax payers!
     
  9. alex_ant macrumors 68020

    alex_ant

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    #9
    I haven't watched a single full baseball game since the 1992 strike. MLB could take a few cues from the minors which are currently flourishing. Institute a salary cap and a low trade quota. Pay the players dramatically less. If they strike, which they will, then fire them. Bring back a respect for team loyalty. Reduce ticket prices. Have more family nights. Give out more cheesy free stuff. Lower the price of food. Get players in there who actually care about the game, not about enhancing their own stats so they can get payed X million more next year. Likewise, they should care about the fans, they should go the extra mile to sign autographs etc.

    As a fan, why should I watch baseball? It's too expensive and it's boring as hell. It's a showcase of greed. Why should I care about any particular player? I know he doesn't care about me. Baseball has been ruined by money, and if you take the money away, the problem fixes itself.
     
  10. jefhatfield thread starter Retired

    jefhatfield

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2000
    #10
    just to play devil's advocate for a second here ;)

    i went to school in a ghetto area in san francisco and the area got cleaned up when there was a new baseball stadium put there...the area needed a boost and all the dot.com firms that opened there had pretty much closed down (nearly 200 of them)

    to have an area so dangerous for business and citizens/tourists is such a shame and now people come there to watch baseball games and it spurs business in that tough area

    the cops actually come there now and protect people where once they just ignored it and left it to the local gangs to intimidate

    from our campus to the parking lot just across the street, the school had to have bodyguards to bring the female and (some male) students to their cars...the lot was protected by some questionable parking lot employees and there were dogs patrolling the area that could have easily ripped off a person's limbs

    year after year, the area just got more dragged into the gutter...so thank god taxpayers helped put up a nice stadium which brought other business into the area
     
  11. jelloshotsrule macrumors G3

    jelloshotsrule

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    #11
    the latter part is why i wouldn't watch it even with the suggested changes.

    watching grass grow....
     
  12. strider42 macrumors 65816

    strider42

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2002
    #12
    baseball is far and away teh cheapest major sport there is. I can go to a game for a few bucks. In Oakland, wednesday games are a dollar for the nose bleed seats. 20 dollars are the best seats in the house. its a great deal. All the other sports are two, three, four or even more times more expensive.

    Whether its boring or not is personal opinion. Personally I find it fascinating. I think football is extraordinarily boring.

    Also, more of the players care about baseball than you think. People like to vilify the players, but are they really the problem? Consider for instance Tiger woods or MIchael Jordan. They are estimated to create billions of dollars for people every year. If they are creating billions, aren't the entitled to the money made off of their names and talents? Likewise, baseball players make lots of money for the owners. Aren't they entitled to part of that money too, or shuold the owners be able to pcoket it and exploit the players. I know its hard to think of such well paid people as exploited, but in the early days of baseball, they were exploited and a lot of money was made on them with nothing going back to them. its wrong. Players get paid exactly what they deserve: that is, exactly what the owners are willing to pay. This is a free market society we live in after all. Just because the players ask for more money does not mean they don't have a genuine love for the game.

    The problem with baseball and finances is not the players really. its poor management and bad ownership who don't care about baseball. The vast majority of players do care. And the vast majority of players in professional baseball aren't even that well paid when you work out the numbers (minor leaguers earn next to nothing in most cases, and second or third tier players may only have a few years in the league. Its not like they have the job for the next 40 years).

    I would also point out that plenty of players to actively sign autographs, and for free. Jason Giambi and Tim Hudson both signed autographs for me when i saw them in Kansas city. very gracious and went out of their way to do so. Considering how many sharks tehre are out there, its not surprising some players are wary. And for players whose careers are done, its a source of income. We can't expect them to just stop earning because their career is over and we want free stuff (that in some cases is worth a lot of money)

    I also don't like the suggestion that they just be fired if they strike. Sounds great in when you don't care abuot the workers (players in this case), but should steel mills and the like be able to do the same thing. If industry fired workers like that, people would be up in arms about it.

    Yes, its hard to sympathize with the very well paid players, but its not a black and white issue like many people try to make it, and salary caps do nothing to foster the things we want (ie, continuity of teams). Most problems in baseball comes down to the owners, not the players.
     
  13. Kid Red macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2001
    #13
    Salary caps suck, but so does the fact that the Yanks have a lot more cash to spend on players then a lot of small market teams.

    What is needed in ALL sports is a fricking PLAYERS CAP. What some of these players get is absolutely ridiculous. That's why smaller teams can't compete, they don't have $100 million to give to 1 player.

    All sports need a common sence player cap. I have no idea hpw'd you'd implement it, but something has to be done. Imagine how much players will be making in 10-20 years from now. Simply stupid.
     
  14. macktheknife macrumors 6502a

    macktheknife

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    #14
    There should be no salary caps at all in baseball. People for some reason think baseball players are overpaid, and I always hear non sequitur garbage like "children are starving while these players earn millions." The fact is, the money to pay for these players exists--the only question is how that pot is divided.

    Remember that having money does not necessarily lead to success. Yes, the Yankees are outpending their way to the top, but smart management is the reason why the team is able to use what dollars they do have wisely. Look at other wealthy teams like the Dodgers and Orioles who throw obscene amounts of money at fungible players, over-the-hill veterans, and unproven retreads. And don't forget the example of my favorite team the Oakland A's. Despite a payroll of about $40 million, they have managed to stay competitive for the past three years. Smart management under GM Billy Beane is the main reason why the A's can compete on a shoestring budget.

    The current revenue sharing scheme in baseball is unambiguously stupid. Revenues--not market size--determines whether a club contributes to the revenue-sharing pool. The Philadelphia metropolitan area has a population two times as large as the Cleveland metropolitan area, yet the Indians were forced to chip in some money into the revenue sharing pool due to high revenues while the Phillies contributed nothing and pocketed some revenue-sharing money. That's how the Phillies were able to sign Jim Thome--by using Thome's former team's money. Such a revenue scheme penalizes teams that invest wisely in their own operations and reward incompetent management.
     
  15. macktheknife macrumors 6502a

    macktheknife

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    #15
    Oh, and my other thoughts

    In no particular order . . .

    1. There should indeed be some revenue-sharing scheme in baseball but not the one MLB currently uses. The plan is simple: If team A plays against team B, the money generated during the series (through ticket sales, television deals, etc.) should be split evenly. This plan won't eliminate the revenue disparity (the Yankees will still get more) but it will help narrow it. True, people who come to Yankee Stadium are there to watch the Yankees, but the Yankees can't play against themselves. The only problem with this plan is that many owners (particularly the media conglomerates) tend to understate the revenues through a lot of accounting hanky-panky.

    2. No public money for stadiums. Baseball teams deserve to make whatever money they make by creating a product that the public wants, but they don't need our help in building their playground. Public money should be spent on wiser things like education, infrastructures, health care, or even a tax rebate. The "jobs" that building a baseball stadium supposedly creates are the low-income temporary type that don't improve the long-term financial health of the city.

    3. Baseball is a fun game (damnit!). OK, everyone is entitled to their opinions on this issue, but I for one love baseball. I think its drama generate alot of excitement. I personally find watching basketball and football quite boring, but I understand why others might like it. Don't diss baseball, folks. :p
     
  16. MrMacMan macrumors 604

    MrMacMan

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    #16
  17. wdlove macrumors P6

    wdlove

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    #17
    Boston happens to have the most expensive seating in baseball. Our owners care about the money by keeping the park full. Winning a game is only a side effect to them.

    I find all sports boring. Those that like sports should pay, I should not be required to in any way.
     
  18. charboneau macrumors member

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    Dec 3, 2002
    #18
    Re: Re: get a salary cap in baseball

    The Expos are another fine example, look at how they've fielded competitve teams over the past few years with an incredibly low team salary. Their player development system is so good that when one of their emerging stars inevitably leaves through free agency there's a capable new young guy to take his place.
     
  19. trebblekicked macrumors 6502a

    trebblekicked

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    #19
    The Upright Citizen's Brigade has proposed a series of rule changes to help bring baseball up to speed with the other, more "entertaining" sports of today. Read about them here.
     
  20. macktheknife macrumors 6502a

    macktheknife

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    #20
    Re: Re: Re: get a salary cap in baseball

    charboneau: I hear you on the Expos. I feel very sorry for Expos fans--the team was this close to winning the NL East in 1994 before the strike prematurely ended the season. Everyone laughs at the Expos, but most teams would pull almost any trade to land any of their all-stars: Vlad, Jose Vidro, etc. They have a great team that needs some competent managment to bring it all together.
     
  21. jefhatfield thread starter Retired

    jefhatfield

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2000
    #21
    it would be great to see the expos win

    i remember when the toronto blue jays won two and that really surprised a lot of folks out here in california

    ...almost as much as the diamondbacks beating the yanks;)
     

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