Get Over It, Already! European News for a Change

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by skunk, Jul 31, 2004.

  1. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #1
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3942679.stm
    Wouldn't it be interesting if we ALL went back to the political map of 1704? Irish Republicans and Native Americans would be blissful. Half the countries in Europe wouldn't exist, and the African continent would be, well, probably just as wretched as it is now, if Mungo Park is anything to go by.

    The possession of Gibraltar was confirmed by the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713, which also confirmed many other world-shaping changes:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Utrecht_(1713)

    I wonder which other bits of the Treaty Spain would like to undo?
     
  2. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #2
    Another interesting provision of the Treaty:

    Considering that the Spanish still hold Ceuta on the Moroccan coast, their insistence on getting hold of Gibraltar seems somewhat hypocritical.
     
  3. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #3
    In the name of international harmony, I'd be willing to give them back Cuba and the Philippines.

    In all seriousness, Gibraltar is contiguous territory, and British dominion over it is an artifact of the colonial era, so I can understand why it sticks in Spain's craw. That being said, I don't quite understand why it's become an issue here and now. But then, this isn't exactly a heavily covered story in the US press...
     
  4. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #4
    And Florida? :)

    It's ALWAYS been an issue. As for "colonial era artifacts", where does that leave you lot? :rolleyes:
     
  5. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #5
    Oh, why not. It's hot, it's humid, it's a headache.

    Having won our independence the hard way?
     
  6. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #6
    Good God, yes, man! Take her and her totally ****ed up election system!
     
  7. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #7
    I was thinking more of the colonial occupation of a previously independent land, rather than the independence of those colonists.... :rolleyes:
     
  8. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #8
    Is it the Falklands and Gibraltar for ever, Skunk? Maybe a negotiated settlement might be in order for the remains of the British Empire? It seems a rather complicated issue to me, and not nearly as clean cut as you make it sound. I'm for all of us getting out of the Empire business, but the only complication in Gibraltar is the rather major one of the wishes of the people who live there. Negotiation seems the only way.
     
  9. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #9
    Overuse of rolleyes alert!

    I'm sorry, I really don't get your point. Are you implying that if Britain gives Gibraltar back to Spain that Britain ought to also give North American back to...? (Who I'm not sure. The Dutch? The French? Indians?)
     
  10. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #10
    No, I'm merely pointing out how absurd it would be arbitrarily to revert to the position in the 17th century. I suppose in those circumstances the American colonists would revert to settlements along the eastern seaboard, peripheral to the Indian states of the interior. It's the same kind of bogus historical fantasy that led to the re-creation of Israel.
     
  11. kerb macrumors regular

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    #11
    The people of Gibraltar are British and feel very much so. A referendum was held and they voted to stay part of Britain.

    It's such a small island anyway. Spain shouldn't give two hoots. They should give the Canary Islands back to the natives there, oh wait they slaughtered them. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
     
  12. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #12
    I don't think arbitrary is exactly the word you were seeking to describe this situation. "Inconvenient" is probably a better descriptor of the problem of reverting lands won through conquest back to the conquered. The issue of the conquered Indian nations still has not been entirely settled here. No "bogus historical fantasy" is at work -- just the recognition that an injustice was done a long time ago and that we ought to be doing a much as possible to rectify it. Progress doesn't need to be measured in absurd extremes, just at a minimum the willingness to acknowledge that historical wounds will never entirely heal without the application of good will.
     
  13. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #13
    Ok, for the sake of argument, if we send colonists to Guantanamo should we be able annex that part of Cuba if that is their wish?
     
  14. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #14
    austria demanding back the countries owned in the year 1703 would seriously piss belgium,italy,chez republic,slovakia,slovenia,and poland off (forgive me if i have forgotten a few others) ... ;)
     
  15. Don't panic macrumors 603

    Don't panic

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    #15
    Barring a major earthquake in the last few hours, Gibraltar in not an Island.
    It shares a border with Spain.

    It should simply be granted full independent status. It doesn't make sense that within Europe there are still "colonies".
     
  16. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #16
    Oh yes it is. Why 1704? Why not 704? Why not 704BC? The Spanish are choosing to ignore "inconvenient" events of their own dreadful colonial history.
     
  17. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #17
    You're right on that one.

    The Spanish won't allow it. Anyway, I see it as a strategic garrison town, not a colony. The same as many US bases around the place.
     
  18. kerb macrumors regular

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    #18

    I stand corrected. It's a an area of land that juts out from Spain yet it's never photographed that way. You always see the rock surrounded by lots of water.

    Why does it not make sense just in Europe? Why does it make sense for us to have the Falklands? For France to have colonies in Africa and Asia?
     
  19. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #19
    they don't.
     
  20. kerb macrumors regular

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    #20

    ok so I'm about 50 years out of date :p

    however the point still stands

    Currently, the only remnants of what was once a large empire are four overseas departments - the Caribbean islands of Guadeloupe and Martinique, Réunion in the Indian Ocean, and the small South American mainland possession of French Guiana; 3 overseas territories: French Polynesia, French Southern and Antarctic Lands, New Caledonia; and two territorial collectivities: Mayotte in the Indian Ocean and St. Pierre and Miquelon near Newfoundland.
     
  21. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #21
    Why does it make more sense for anyone else to have the Falklands?
     
  22. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #22
    You know, this is all moot.

    Obviously, the world and all the land and resources therein, are the property and dominion of the United States of America, by Divine Providence...resistance will result in arbitrary bombing of your country back to the stone age, or possibly a neighboring country or one that has a similar name. Details are for pussys...
     
  23. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #23
    In that event, most recent UK government instructions say to stay indoors, close all windows and sit under a table. You don't worry me, I'm prepared.
     
  24. Zaid macrumors 6502

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    #24
    Spain lost a war and ceded Gibraltar to Britain 300 years ago. Is Spain going to start demanding back their other European possessions? Maybe the Netherlands should just give up now and restore Spanish sovereignty there :)

    Of course if Spain is is so insistent on regaining Gibraltar, as it is a contiguous piece of Spain, why don't they return Cuetia to Morocco. Its exactly the same situation in reverse for Spain.

    Smacks of hypocrisy to me.
     
  25. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #25
    Hmm... if this sets the precedent, I think Turkey, Mongolia, Greece and Italy are due to have some large pieces of land "returned" to them.

    Not to mention Poland would cease to exist... again.
     

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