Getting a Little Pissed Off

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by ChrisFromCanada, Jul 5, 2005.

  1. ChrisFromCanada macrumors 65816

    ChrisFromCanada

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Location:
    Hamilton, Ontario (CANADA)
    #1
    Hello fellow MR members,
    Lately I have been a little pissed off at some members posting comments I find very irritating. I hear them every day from young people bashing our President, Bush (Yes I am an American citizen as well as Canadian). I would just like to see some people being a little more careful, and for them to think a little more before they post.

    I love MR and the way we can embrace all people with all kinds of different beliefs so please hear out a conservative here.

    More specifically I have been pissed off by this thread:
    http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=135958

    I suppose I would just encourage people to get a balanced viewpoint before passing judgement on the American Republican party.

    Just looking a comments like

    Just look at this, first respect the other members here and use some grammar and spelling; iv is not a word. Secondly if you are so knowledgeable about saddam hussein, please spell his name right. And the other thing I don't like about this comment is that it implies that President Bush or a conservative said it.

    Then other gems like:

    Which is not only disrespectful to the United States, but is also not a very educated or fact based point of view.

    Then...

    I guess what I am getting at here is that most people are posting these "lies" as if they were common knowledge when most points here are highly debatable.

    It seems to me that the common view here is that president Bush is a corrupt president that only went into Iraq for oil. If you want to see real corruption have a look here and especially here Oh Yeah and Here

    And just to put a little perspective on the war in Iraq, we haven't found any WMD's yet, but putting the ruthless killer to rest is enough to justify the war for me.
     
  2. zelmo macrumors 603

    zelmo

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2004
    Location:
    Mac since 7.5
    #2
    Speaking as a registered Republican who will cross party lines to vote for the best (imho) candidate, I appreciate the timbre of your post, as it does get just a wee bit liberal in these forums for my own blood. I think neither side has much right to throw rocks, as I've never heard of a politician or political faction that did not cater to agendas or business interests of some sort. Sadly, in America, politics has devolved into "pick the candidate whom you believe will do the least damage."

    Where politics are concerned, I think it is very unlikely that posts in a Mac internet forum are going to sway anyone's opinion (certainly not my own). As such, I don't get too worked up over them (I'm often amused, though), and as a rule I tend to stay out of political discussions. And now I've gone and broken my unwritten rule.
     
  3. Lyle macrumors 68000

    Lyle

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2003
    Location:
    Madison, Alabama
    #3
    Chris, the fact of the matter is that if you're going to hang out in the "Politics" forum at MacRumors, you're going to need to have a thick skin. Personal attacks on fellow forum members are out of line, but it's pretty standard fare for the more liberal posters to make comments similar to the ones you posted, attacking the Bush administration, Republicans, Christians, Americans, etc.. And, to be fair, there are conservative posters who take similar potshots at various groups on the political "left".

    The difference is that the "regulars" here also follow an unwritten rule -- or maybe it's an official rule, can't recall -- that one should back up their claims with references to support their position. So, to use one of your examples, if someone were to claim that Bush once said, "Sadaam Hussain (sic) has wmd's and can launch them within 45mins," he or she could be called out to back up that statement.
     
  4. miloblithe macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2003
    Location:
    Washington, DC
    #4
    Just look at this. First, respect the other members here and use some grammar and spelling; "iv" is not a word. Second, if you are so knowledgeable about Saddam Hussein, please spell his name right. And the other thing I don't like about this comment is that it implies that President Bush or a conservative said it.

    You're also inconsistent in your use of "that". If you use "it implies that" you might want to consider "the other thing that I don't like".

    You might want to consider hyphenation for "fact based point of view."

    "It seems to me that the common view here is that president Bush is a corrupt president that only went into Iraq for oil."

    It is considered respectful--not to mention correct--to capitalize "President" when referring to the U.S. President. Also, "that" should never be used to refer to a person, even if he reminds some people of a monkey robot. This sentence should read:

    "It seems to me that the common view here is that President Bush is a corrupt president who only went into Iraq for oil."


    If you're going to call people on their spelling and grammar, don't make an ass of yourself.
     
  5. Lyle macrumors 68000

    Lyle

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2003
    Location:
    Madison, Alabama
    #5
    The regular posters to the "Politics" forum usually present reasonable arguments for their positions (even if you don't happen to agree with them). The signal-to-noise ratio can get a little low sometimes when people make "drive-by" comments and then don't stick around to defend them, but that's the exception and not the rule, in my experience.

    That sounds like a very healthy approach. ;)
     
  6. stubeeef macrumors 68030

    stubeeef

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2004
    #6
    Dude (first I can't spell-so forgive me-I am getting better) I applaude your rant. Good Job!
    The fact is MR has a very vocal and prolific left of left (off the chart really) group of "people". Most that do the posts you mention are very well known in their views as I am sure they know mine and now yours. After awhile you just smirk, giggle and moveon.
    We all understand the world is not black and white, that both sides make major blunders, and we all want better government (some want more; some want less; all want better).
    Please make your views known, I as one love to hear voices of reason in a sea or socialists.
    There are also quite a few moderates that are very well read and not so quick to blast one side or the other.
    I put many of the more egregious posters on ignore (they ignore me as well and all are happy).
    Jump in, enjoy, don't get caught in a heated fuss that will get ya in timeout or banned. Use links, and tell'm like it is.
    Nice to meet ya! ;)
     
  7. diamond geezer macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2004
    #7
    The comment
    Where did the poster suggest it was Bush (it was Blair of course) that made that remark?

    With regards to putting a killer behind bars making it all worthwhile, that's all well and good, except that it's just an excuse and not the reason for invading. When Saddam was at his murderous height in the eighties the US supported him and continued to support him right up until the Kuwait invasion.

    The War Hawks clearly stated in a letter to The White House in 1998 that
    Cheney and Rummy clearly want to control the Middle East and Saddam was just an excuse to get permanent bases.

    How many have now been killed in this War based on lies?

    As far as being disrespectful to the US, we'll what have you done recently to gain the worlds respect?
     
  8. PlaceofDis macrumors Core

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    #8
    i do sincerely apologize if my remark offended anyone, it was more in jest than anything else, and i am not trying to point fingers at anyone or at all with my comment. i am not saying that Republicans lie more than Dems at all, they both have their share of faults. the rednecks comment was simply to poke fun.

    again i do apologize if anyone was offended by what i said.
     
  9. CanadaRAM macrumors G5

    CanadaRAM

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2004
    Location:
    On the Left Coast - Victoria BC Canada
    #9
    Hmm. Let us consider the implications of your thesis then, supposing that the following statements are true:

    "Clear evidence of the existence of weapons of mass destruction, the capability to deliver such weapons, and the plans or intent to use such weapons was found in Iraq."

    "A definite link between Al-Qaeda and the former government of Afghanistan has been proven."

    "Upon occupation of Iraq, the US-led coalition made its first priority the restoration of hospitals, power and water works, and only after the well being of the civilian population was ensured, commenced to secure oil and commercial assets."

    "Military action and occupation of a sovereign state in the absence of military aggression by that state is legal under international law." (extra credit option to extend this discussion to Afghanistan, Panama, Grenada and others as time permits.)

    "All combatant and non-combatant prisioners taken by the US-led coalition during the campaign have been treated in compliance with international law and conventions on prisoners, human rights and the principle of due process."

    Discuss.
     
  10. Xtremehkr macrumors 68000

    Xtremehkr

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    #10
    And what these comments are based upon does not upset you any?
     
  11. ham_man macrumors 68020

    ham_man

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2005
    #11
    Keep political comments in the political forum and all is well and good. The problem starts when it crosses into other forums...
     
  12. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2003
    Location:
    PDX
    #12
    I like the intent here Stu, but the tone seems a little off. I really don't think there are (m)any "socialists" here on this board, that being a term that has mutated so far from it's actual meaning as to be nearly useless. Although I admittedly find myself more to the "left" on many issues, many of the regular posters to this forum, while being "liberal", also manage to construct excellent arguments to bolster their position(s). I admire this, regardless of ideological adherence to my own. I think it is a mischaracterization to call MR PF "left of left". It is left of right, however.

    As to the original poster, you must understand the disparity of ages on this board, as well as the exasperation this President has caused many people with his policies/actions. Everyone is entitled to a little rhetorical steam from time to time, and I do not put stock in a position if it is poorly argued. I am sorry if anything was offensive to you.

    Many people dislike Bush to a rather extreme degree, and while it may be incomprehensible to you why they would feel that way and/or the manner in which they voice that opinion, bear in mind, many also find your position equally mind-boggling.

    boggle on...
     
  13. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2002
    Location:
    LaLaLand, CA
    #13
    First of all, it's funny that you post links to places like Fox News and the Washington Times.

    But I think the real problem is that just because there is other corruption going on in the world, the former administration as well, doesn't make this administration's mistakes any less relevant. And they have made a lot of mistakes. Maybe you can justify everything we've sacrificed for this war, but some of us just can't. Last I checked, this being America, just like I criticized the last President and his cronies, I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to criticize this one as well. Some people are going to have opinions different than yours, often based on facts and not just rhetoric. Not all Repubs are evil, not all Dems good, but right now the Neocons are in charge, and they are making a lot of mistakes that they should be held accountable for. As an American, and a patriot, I have every right to criticize a person or group of people that I feel do harm to this country.

    So tell me, where are those WMDs? Or that link to Al Qaeda? Or Bin Laden for that matter, the guy who actually attacked us? How 'bout why my friends are dying over there, since the reason keeps changing? I have a lot of questions that I'd like answers to that aren't even being dealt with. Instead I just get called a socialist or traitor (while people like Rove really are commiting treason), while both parties continue to piss me off.

    So go ahead and get pissed off. You have the right to your opinion. But guess what... so do I.
     
  14. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2004
    Location:
    Reality
    #14
    Chris, when the word "Republican" refers to a moderate GOP member, I personally have a hard time "bashing" him, even though I may not agree with him.

    But increasingly, "Republicans" in this country -- at least the ones in power -- are angry, devious men, concerned more with wealth more than the commonweal, desperate to hide their acts behind a veil of secrecy, contemptuous of anyone who disagrees with them, anxious to restrict people's liberties, controlling and manipulating the media, brazenly lying about almost anything, totally unrepentent in their violations of the Constitution, and addicted to giving their interpretation of the Bible primacy over the reality around them.

    We liberals -- the majority of America, despite what you may hear from the neo-cons -- are backed into a corner. What are we to do, whimper meekly and accept our fate?

    Moreover, we are sick of being told we're anti-Christian and unpatriotic by government and media people who expect everyone to be lobotomized followers of their sociopathic policies.

    If the neo-cons ever decide that America is a land where everyone is treated equally and everyone is at liberty to do what they want as long as it hurts no one else, then I'm sure the vituperative attacks on Bush & Co. will subside.

    Unfortunately, that'll be the same time that Hell freezes over.
     
  15. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2002
    Location:
    Palookaville
    #15
    Anyone who claims that this forum is, has been and always will be biased "left of left" can't have been here for very long. The tone and balance was very different two and more years ago, when anyone who suggested that the invasion of Iraq was a foolish and poorly planned adventure and would cost far more in life and treasure than the administration claimed it would, had to wear asbestos jockey shorts. (Oddly enough, now that the majority of American have come around to this view, all of these flame-throwers are absent the field.)

    I must remember the trick of putting "people" in quotes. A subtle, but clearly demeaning gesture.
     
  16. Don't panic macrumors 603

    Don't panic

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2004
    Location:
    having a drink at Milliways
    #16
    except that the ONLY stated reason we went to iraq was to neutralize an immediate danger to the US in the form of WMD, which as many claimed from the beginning and all accept now as a fact (maybe except you), never existed. Not to mention that the vast majority of the ruthless killing was done with our enthusiastic support and the direct involvement of elements of this administration.
    Surprisingly enough, of the many despicable ruthless killers in charge around the world (many of which our good allies) we decided to displace the one who was sitting on top of 30% of the world's oil reserves.
    That tens of thousands of people had to die in the process is truly unfortunate.
     
  17. Peterkro macrumors 68020

    Peterkro

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2004
    Location:
    Communard de Londres
    #17
    Something to keep in mind is that views outside the US tend to cover a much wider spectrum than those generally voiced by mainstream US thought(I know there are people of all views in the US it's just those views are hard to hear in the prevailing right wing climate).To me the difference between the Republicans and Democrats is virtually nil both are big corporate funded right wing parties.Using liberal and socialist as terms of derison shows just how far out of kilter with world thought on politics mainstream US is.
     
  18. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2003
    Location:
    Dornbirn (Austria)
    #18
    hehe i thought the same often enough, especially through the election circus where the demcorats had problems differtianting themselves from the republicans

    and Chris:
    1. using "I hear them every day from young people bashing our President, Bush" is hardly a wise decision on a international forum ;) i know how you meant it but it's still offensive (at least i was offended in both ways by it: being not from the US and the desperate way of creating a "we" feeling)

    2. food for oil: from the companies involved more than half of them were in fact from the US so it was a bad example of "throwing stones while sitting inside of the glass house", i guess you kinda missed those news right ? (was around in the political forum as a topic)

    3. orthography nitpicking: got already answered

    4."Which is not only disrespectful to the United States": respect needs to be earned and can be lost quite easily and fast, and you not gonna win international members with such sentences

    5. you're not gonna find much WMD in iraq, because do you really think they are still looking ? the us army didn' bother to secure iraqy nuclear facilities how can they be seriously looking for wmd then ?
     
  19. ChrisFromCanada thread starter macrumors 65816

    ChrisFromCanada

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Location:
    Hamilton, Ontario (CANADA)
    #19
    I am pleased by the responses that I have received so far. Unfortunately, I have a life outside of MR and so I can't reply to all of you, but here goes:

    I know my spelling and grammar is not excellent. I guess what I was getting pissed off at most is the l33t speakers here. I just find I very difficult to read and understand. And for the person who complained about capitalizing President, I did the first two times just forgot those last two.

    A few people have complained about the Bin Laden - Al Qaeda - Afghanistan connection. I recently saw a good biography in the life of Bin Laden. I found it interesting that in the late 90's there weren't any countries in the middle east that would accept him except for Afghanistan, and so for me, harboring a known terrorist is enough to justify a connection.

    I am not trying to justify what the government did in the 80's, but the only reason we did support him was because it was during the cold war and the US was taking sides with anyone who was against the Russians. I think that Bush Sr. did make a mistake here, and Bush Jr. is setting it straight.

    I would like to see a source on your quote.
    I believe that more lives have been saved than lost in this war.
    Maybe you misunderstood my comment. I meant if somebody says, because they are a US citizen everything they hear is lies, is disrespectful to the nation.

    1. Sorry this was intended mostly for our American members, but I didn't mean to offend.

    2. Reputable Source? Because I don't really buy that there were many (if any) US companies that benefitted from that, and especially not Bush or anyone in his administration.

    4. Refer to 1

    5. I would really like to see a source on this one, seems to be pure speculation and rumor to me.
     
  20. Desertrat macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2003
    Location:
    Terlingua, Texas
    #20
    I enjoy the polititical forum because the majority of the folks here do some homework on the various subjects. More than I do, in some cases; I admit I tend to coast on a buildup of snippets of information from over a fair number of decades. Old Farts do that, and I made it to 71, today. :)

    Some of the foaming at the mouth style of "Bush lied!" stuff is offputting. Bush and his advisors have taken several positions that don't sit well with me, but that's true for the last half-dozen administrations. I don't like it; I see better ways or what I consider more good-of-the-nation policies, but I don't go foaming over it all. Again, maybeso an age thing, but the emotions of youth don't create truth...

    :), 'Rat
     
  21. iGary Guest

    iGary

    Joined:
    May 26, 2004
    Location:
    Randy's House
    #21
    This is definitely a left-leaning forum, which is fine.

    I don't like Bush, but I don't like Kerry, either.

    I tend to stay out of the politics end of things here. Lots of angry people.
     
  22. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2003
    Location:
    Dornbirn (Austria)
    #22
    for example:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1485546,00.html
    or
    http://news.ft.com/cms/s/d9d4d8b0-64f6-11d9-9f8b-00000e2511c8.html

    from wikipedia:
    "The Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations assigned to investigate the scandal has also concluded that
    "The United States (government) was not only aware of Iraqi oil sales which violated UN sanctions and provided the bulk of the illicit money Saddam Hussein obtained from circumventing UN sanctions. On occasion, the United States actually facilitated the illicit oil sales."
    The report also found that individuals and companies in the United States accounted for 52% of all oil-voucher kickbacks paid to Saddam Hussein. The largest of theses recipients, Houston based Bayoil and its CEO, Bay Chalmers have been indicted by the US Department of Justice for their actions."

    nuclear plant thing:
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,85940,00.html
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2968640.stm
    http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/06/06/iaea.iraq.tuwaitha/
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A35498-2003Apr24
    etc.
    a little bit of googling
     
  23. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #23
    Happy Birthday, Desert Fart!
    :D
     
  24. miloblithe macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2003
    Location:
    Washington, DC
    #24
    I'd like to apologize for my earlier post. It was certainly a little much. All I meant to say really is that we all make grammar and spelling mistakes (although certainly some more than others) but that doesn't mean we don't have something interesting to say. Also, there are a number of people on here for whom English is not their first language. Their mastery of the language is pretty impressive when that's considered.

    Other than that though, I kind of agree with you. It would be nice if we could have a thoughtful, respectful discussion of issues here. Most people do reference their sources and try to listen. Most people here also have their moments of venting or hyperbole. All people here suffer from the problem that debate in an Internet forum is given to more misunderstandings and overstatements than would happen if we all got together in a room and talked to each other. The fact is sometimes people are going to go too far and sometimes debates will get heated. This is an open forum where anyone can post.

    Regardless, I hope that you throw your hat into the ring. As someone who has strong socialist ideals that are mediated by strong beliefs in what is pragmatic, I tend to find this forum boring when a thread is only composed of like-minded posts. Debate is not only interesting, but it's how we learn something from one another and craft well-reasoned positions.

    Oh, and happy birthday 'Rat!
     
  25. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2004
    Location:
    Reality
    #25
    Are you yankin' us? :eek: Most people that age don't even know what an internet forum is. :D

    Happy birthday!
     

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