"God Says ... "

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by michaello, Sep 7, 2003.

  1. michaello macrumors newbie

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    #1
    Here are just a few quotes from a few “influential individuals” who are using the concept of “God” to explain their actions.

    Condoleezza Rice: "When I'm concerned about something, I figure out a plan of action, and then I give it to God," she told Essence magazine earlier this year. ‘I just ask to be carried through it. God's never failed me yet.’"

    George Bush: "I believe God has called us into action ... God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did ..."

    Osama Bin Laden: "On that basis, and in compliance with God's order, we issue the following fatwa ..."

    David Berkowitz (Son of Sam): "I would like to be used by God to reach out to a lot of teenagers ... The Lord calls me the Son of Hope."

    Seriously - Is it healthy that these people are "throwing it to God" and being told what to do by God?

    Where is the line drawn between an issue of faith and an issue of requiring psychiatric help?

    What do you think?
     
  2. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #2
    Re: "God Says ... "

    how about when god tells someone to go out and kill in his name?
     
  3. michaello thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #3
    Like this, you mean?

    George Bush: "I believe God has called us into action ... God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did ..."

    Osama Bin Laden: "On that basis, and in compliance with God's order, we issue the following fatwa ..."
     
  4. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #4
    honestly, i don't see much difference between the two.

    except that bin laden will be satisfied once the mideast is free of non-muslims. when will bush be satisfied?
     
  5. michaello thread starter macrumors newbie

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    They'll be happy when they "succeed in doing God's work", I guess.

    But, my point in the thread is NOT to compare Bin Laden to George W. Bush or to the Son of Sam.

    My point is their BELIEF that they are all doing "God's Work", in "God's name" - and there are an awful lot of people in the Bush administration who feel that they are doing the work of "God".

    And, my question is: "Is this healthy?"
     
  6. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #6
    no. anything that can make anyone feel good about killing others cannot be healthy.
     
  7. Frohickey macrumors 6502a

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    #7
    I think GWBush was just fine and dandy up until Sept 11th happened. So, UBLaden will be satisfied when the MiddleEast is free of non-muslims. GWBush will be satisfied when the threat of terrorism is not present.

    Maybe a public apology from UBL in al-Jazzera saying he was wrong, and that he is going to go back to Saudi Arabia to become a construction company tycoon would be just fine with GWBush.
     
  8. shadowfax macrumors 603

    shadowfax

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    #8
    now, now, i think it's naïf to take Bin Laden's word for it that that's all he wants. i suspect that his "god" would tell him to do anything if it kept him popular with the extremists.

    seriously, it's one thing to be cynical about bush. great. good for you. but to turn around and be naïf about Bin Laden makes you look kinda dumb...

    as for what "God says," i don't see any problem with it in Condoleezza Rice's quote; it was pretty good.

    bush's quote is unequivocally freaky. i would appreciate something like "i believe that i am following a course of action that is just in the eyes of god," but "God came to me and told me to kill this guy and that guy" seems a bit out of tune. it's far too mystical for politics.

    i think i would draw the line about "hearing something from god" where people start to use it to (a) neglect to do something they should, and "trust god to take care of it," or (b) do something that people find objectionable and use the "argument" as an excuse not to make a valid, just argument for what they do.
     
  9. Daveman Deluxe macrumors 68000

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    #9
    I would like to present the opinion of the token liberal youth minister. To avoid any misunderstanding, I am speaking only from the Christian view of God and make no claim as to the beliefs of any faith other than Christianity.

    From my limited knowledge of history, I can only see two times that a case can be made that a war would be justified in God's eyes.

    -When God told the Children of Israel to invade the Promised Land. In this instance, God was using Israel as his method of punishment to the Phillistines who had rejected him.

    -World War II. I suggest this because the Holocaust had to end (it would have been preferable that the Holocaust never started, of course). I am aware there were many other reasons for WWII, but the only one that I know of and see as justifiable is the Holocaust.

    I see God's primary concern as building up life, and it is our purpose on Earth to preserve it, not tear it down over petty issues (wars often are fought over petty issues). It is also reasonable for a nation to defend itself when under attack.

    In short, I agree with zimv20. Anybody that is trying to justify killing, especially with death tolls on the order of war, is unhealthy. When I see Christians who believe the same way Dubya does, I think they have a warped view of what God stands for.

    Edit: It would probably have been easier to say I agree whole-heartedly with shadowfax's post, but I wanted to get a bit more specific about the way I see things.
     
  10. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #10
    i'll try again:

    UBL's stated goals:
    1. remove the infidels from the holy land
    2. get a palestinian state

    now while i'm not naive enough to take him at his word, he has his out strategy. while unlikely, it's a possible scenario (e.g. if the mideast ran out of oil)

    bush's stated goal:
    1. to wipe out terrorism

    i'm definitely not naive enough to believe that. but let's assume that's the goal. it's practically unattainable. the mere act of fighting terrorism causes more of it.

    fighting terrorism is fighting entropy. entropy always wins.

    if the US becomes energy self-sustaining, and the US withdraws its interest from the middle east, and the US becomes a good international citizen, the terrorism will stop. but not until then.
     
  11. Frohickey macrumors 6502a

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    #11
    But we can't do that.

    We can't drill off the shores of the United States.
    We can't drill within the state of Alaska and ANWR.
    We can't use nuclear energy.
    We can't use coal.
     
  12. Daveman Deluxe macrumors 68000

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    #12
    Frohickey-

    There are other ways of generating power. There's wind and solar, not to mention the intriguing field of hydrogen power.

    By far the best thing would be to use fusion, of course. It's hard to do, though, or I suppose we'd already be doing it.
     
  13. vwcruisn macrumors regular

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    #13
    huh.. how about stricter regulations on fuel efficiency .If every noncommercial driver in the United States owned a vehicle that got at least 27 miles to the gallon, our country would no longer need to import oil from the Middle East. Regardless, we are a wasteful society.. nobody can argue that. How can one justify destroying such a beautiful place on earth.. such as the alaska national wildlife refuge when we are still producing vehicles that get 10 miles to a gallon?
     
  14. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #14
    then we live w/ terrorism.
     
  15. krossfyter macrumors 601

    krossfyter

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    #15


    okay say we withdraw and do all of what you said above... they will say they win.. fine... but what makes you think they won't bother us anymore???
     
  16. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #16
    same reason we stopped attacking the british. they left.
     
  17. krossfyter macrumors 601

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    #17

    okay correct me if im wrong but dont the terrorists unlike the british (at that time) have this religious zeal to stomp out "the great satan"?? so doesnt it matter not if we do or dont do anything because of this zeal that they have? we are a target primarily of our unique position in the world not so much because of our opposition to leave their so called land. i agree though that our boys on their land is one factor but im not sure if its the main one. another big factor would be our support for isreal. now please dont be offended by what i am saying here. i am trying to conduct this discussion with respect for your views as well as others. i am trying to learn a little from this discussion so im not here to bad mouth anyones opinions or views.

    with respect,
    krossfyter
     
  18. shadowfax macrumors 603

    shadowfax

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    #18
    exactly. this is my point, zim. you are talkng about stated goals, but when we leave, OBL will come up with some new goals. he'll be killing some other "great evil" in the name of allah. he's a crusader.
     
  19. tazo macrumors 68040

    tazo

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    #19
    Re: Re: "God Says ... "

    Like some arab guy?
     
  20. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    Re: Re: Re: "God Says ... "

    Exactly! Or some redneck.
     
  21. Sayhey macrumors 68000

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    #21
    When God starts telling somefolks they have the right way for us all, I always start looking for the nearest exit. I know some very, very good people who claim to have had a one-on-one with the almighty and that is all fine and good, but that disembodied voice in someone's ear should be greeted with a healthy dose of skepticism. For every Joan d'Arc there are too many Torquemadas. And so that no one think that this is just a problem of Islam, we should remember that Paul Hill went smiling to his death wishing to kill more doctors because his God told him it was right. Fundamentalism, the belief that there is only one way to live and that has been revealed to us by God, is a problem in every religion. It provides the excuse for Judge Moore and John Ashcroft to take away our basic rights, just as it provides the excuse for jihadis to kill US soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    As to terrorism, I think we have to fight it. It just can't only be fought with bullets and bombs. You get rid of terrorism by combating not only the current bin Laden, but also by fighting what causes people to go to such horrible methods. That includes ignorance, poverty, and a sense of powerlessness. Those are not things that it is easy to declare victory over after a military campaign, but if we are serious about stopping terrorism we will have to deal with them.
     
  22. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #22
    Who started the "War on Poverty"? Was it Nixon, or was that the "War on Drugs"?

    Regardless, we've been fighting both "wars" for some time with little success.
     
  23. shadowfax macrumors 603

    shadowfax

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    #23
    i have a question: do you think the middle east will prosper, ever, if the US leaves it entirely, gives them israel and everything they want (as of right now)?

    i mean, i think bin laden thrives on their poverty. it makes people much more prone to manipulation, being impoverished. so another question--i am curious--what should we do in iraq now that we are there?
     
  24. shadowfax macrumors 603

    shadowfax

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    #24
    i think LBJ was the war on poverty, was't it? "the great society," and all that? war on drugs sounds more like reagan or carter, but i could be wrong on that, just a shot in the breeze...
     
  25. mactastic macrumors 68040

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    #25
    Well, now that we are there, we have to fix it. Leaving it alone is no longer an option. We need to leave Iraq in good hands, even if that means that 50 years from now we are still involved if necessary, or out ASAP if that is what's required. All decisions now need to be made in the best interests of the Iraqis, not the US if we are too avoid having to deal with this problem 10, 20, 50 years down the line. We have caused problems for ourselves before with short-sighted foreign policy decisions. This would be a bad place to make more.

    We need to pony up for the Iraqi reconstruction in a big way. I only hope it doesn't cause much more economic pain.
     

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