"Guilty until proven innocent" - Intel employee

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Rower_CPU, Apr 14, 2003.

  1. Moderator emeritus

    Rower_CPU

    Joined:
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    San Diego, CA
    #1
    http://news.com.com/2010-1071-996625.html?tag=fd_nc_1

     
  2. macrumors P6

    wdlove

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    #2
    We are currently in a War against Terrrorism. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt on this!
     
  3. macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #3
    Yes, but this is a war with no conditions for victory. Thus it can last forever, thus the benefit of the doubt becomes the law of the land.

     
  4. Moderator emeritus

    Mr. Anderson

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    #4
    Its truly sad and a willingness or faith in this case might be misplaced. I understand the need for security, but when no one gets any info and they have carte blanch on what they do with him in terms of holding him, well, that's just not right.

    I'm thinking that the laws are a little over zealous at the moment and that hopefully things will work out that it won't become a bigger problem.

    But in the mean time that doesn't help anyone selected for this special treatment.

    D
     
  5. macrumors G3

    jelloshotsrule

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    #5
    sounds like what they had in england to try to grab irish terrorists.... like in "in the name of the father"...

    great :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
     
  6. macrumors 604

    MrMacMan

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    Location:
    1 Block away from NYC.
    #6
    Wow that is scary... make donations to a place that gets their assets frozen, get sent to secrets courts...

    :mad: Exactally what the hell I've been telling people about, everyone gets a gag order or is told not to talk about it and know what ever knows what happens.

    the free mike site

    Well now that all of you know they can do this, do something to help stop it!
     
  7. macrumors 65816

    Joined:
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    #7
    Deja vu, folks. The exact same thing happened to Japanese Americans in WW II, and they had no recourse as well.

    That was a demonstrable violation of civil rights and we're letting it happen again.

    It isn't a CHOICE between civil rights and security against terrorism; you CAN have both.
     
  8. macrumors 68020

    mymemory

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Miami
    #8
    The US goverment is acting pretty cuban lately.
    1. They go to a war without paying attention to the UN.
    2. People with "peace" t-shirts are arrested in the mall.
    3. Now this.

    ¿?
     
  9. macrumors 6502

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    fennario
    #9
    You think that is over zealous? Go do some research on the current marijuana laws.

    Let the flaming begin.:eek:
     
  10. Moderator emeritus

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    #10
    That's right. You don't dare look different or else you'll be arrested. How many good Arab-American citizens are still being detained for no good reason?

    WWII United States failed to mention to their own people that they were imprisoning other American citizens. How many Japanese-Americans died because of such fear and racism?
     
  11. macrumors 603

    rainman::|:|

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    iowa
    #11
    i can't stand the government, i can't stand the deprivation of civil liberties that occurs on a daily basis in this country, and i really *hate* the fact that the government has condoned racism.

    terrorist laws, marijuana laws, marriage laws... the government just can't seem to figure it out...

    see, everyone is willing to see their liberties and freedoms go down the toilet with the idea that it supports an ongoing war... but do you honestly expect these rights to be returned to us when the 'war' is over? hell, when WILL the war be over? Face it, you just sacraficed freedom for yourself, your children, your childrens' children... and given the government a little more.

    Now who's a communist???

    :) see this is why i don't participate in political discussions often...

    pnw
     
  12. macrumors P6

    wdlove

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    #12
    Our government is not perfect, but compared to all the other governments on earth it's the best that man could develop. No other country has our freedom. It's that freedom that we are protecting.
     
  13. macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #13
    Yes, because Iraq was just about to conquer and take my freedoms.

    And what's this "most free" stuff? What do you base that on? I can name at least half a dozen nations off the top of my head that afford their citizens more or just as many freedoms as we have.
     
  14. macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #14
    One more thing:

    I'd rather be dead from terrorism than alive and in a nation that has secret arrests.
     
  15. macrumors 6502a

    748s

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    #15
    :confused: how do you know this? there are many countries with more freedom. dragging citizens away to secret prisons suggests it's time for regime change in the USA.
     
  16. macrumors 604

    MrMacMan

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    #16
  17. Moderator emeritus

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    #17
    I'd say that Japan's and England's (not the whole U.K. though) are quite good.
     
  18. macrumors member

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    #18
    I think Bob Dylan should write a song about this, like he did for "The Hurricane"...
     
  19. Sol
    macrumors 68000

    Sol

    Joined:
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    #19
    Sounds like you need to take a round the world trip my friend. In a lot of European countries people have the freedom to purchase and smoke marijuana in legitimate businesses like cafeterias, become members of Communist parties which in turn have the freedom to participate in democratic elections, and even publish or purchase hard-core pornography sold in any street news-stand. Vulgar as they may be, these are just a few examples of the freedoms that people enjoy in many countries that are not America.
     
  20. macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
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    #20
    What do you mean by "not the whole UK though"? There may be slightly different laws in Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland but I'm pretty sure we all have the same freedoms. (Not sure abouyt N Ireland though as you know there has been trouble there). If you meant that it did not include Ireland, Ireland is not part of the UK.
     
  21. macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
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    #21
    Oh yeah the in the US you are free to keep firearms.
    :rolleyes:

    SO all these democratic countries where you cannot be kept detained unless you have chrages, oh, except they are not aloud to have firearms, does that make them less free?

    Anyway, say it is the best government on earth. But you admit it is not perfect, so you are happy to see this happen, jsut becuase the government is good in other ways. So the government is not perfect, whats wrong with trying to make it closer to being perfect? Its definately better than it backtracking isn't it?
     
  22. macrumors member

    Joined:
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    #22
    Sol,
    Any American has the right to become a member of the Communist party and participate in democratic elections. Your idea of freedom is simply the right to smoke pot in a business and buy hard core porn off the sidewalk?

    bousozoku,
    Does this include the cameras that track people all over London? Did you know that books can be banned in the UK? Did you know that libel cases are often brought in British courts rather than American courts because the US has a greater degree of freedom of expression and a higer bar to prove libel? While freedoms are quite good in the UK, they are not at the level of the United States.


    amnesiac1984,

    From Amnesty International:
    Looks like we do have many of the same freedoms.
     
  23. macrumors 68000

    topicolo

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Ottawa, ON
    #23
    No offense, but that is the most blind, chauvinistic, and sweeping statement I've read today. We can't possibly protect freedom by arresting people without charging them for any crimes. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
     
  24. macrumors 65816

    Taft

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2002
    Location:
    Chicago
    #24
    Right, because there are no cameras at sporting events, public places and subways in this country. And our government would never consider banning books or passing laws that are unreasonably restrictive on free speech.

    There is no WAY our government would try anything like that. We are, after all, the land of the free. :rolleyes:

    Just like in the US, other country's governments do unreasonable things in the name of security, peace and order. These things often violate the constituations--or their equivelent--of those countries. And, just like here those actions and laws are often challenged by individuals, organizations and businesses that are adversely restricted by those actions or laws.

    Not ALL countries enjoy the freedoms we do, but there are a great many nations that enjoy freedoms equal to or even above our own.

    And you seem to be a bit inconsistent in the freedoms we enjoy: on one hand you decry Britain for banning books and on the other, you belittle someone for saying you can buy explicit publications in other countries but not here. Is that freedom really any different than my freedom to buy a book? Or is it OK to restrict MY freedoms because a moral majority has decided that some actions and words are good and others are bad?

    How free are we when we pass anti-smoking laws? Anti-marijuana laws? Anti-sodamy laws? We are the land of the free only up to the point where we offend the Christian majority. After that, our freedoms dissappear in favor of a moral judgement cast by the majority.

    Taft
     
  25. macrumors member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    #25
    Taft,
    A great many should include at least a dozen or so with greater freedoms than in the US. Care to list them?

    Incidently, I think you can buy explicit publications here, although it is not a habit of mine to do so. Maybe some other posters can fill us in. Your link to banned books includes much that is of historical interest in the US, but little that is current. Many of the Supreme Court decision that have moulded freedom of speech in the US were handed down in the 1960s. The link notes the banning of hate speech in many democracies, but the US is strikingly missing from that list, although I fear it won't be for much longer as there are efforts to ban speech even here. Questions of children's access to certain reading materials does not infringe on the general right of free speech. As minors, children do not enjoy the full set of rights that adults enjoy. That is not always a bad thing. The parents can buy any book they want for their kids to read, even if it isn't on the reading list for the local elementary school.

    Are you aware of any soddomy laws that are enforced? When was the last time such a law was passed? There might be some, but I haven't seen any reports on them except for them being ruled unenforcable.

    Smoking is a stupid habit to start and a tough addiction to break, but I can understand the fear of government intrusion. I also enjoy breathing the cleaner air in public places where smoking is not allowed.

    bousozoku,
    While the detention of Japansese Ameicans was a shameful chapter in US history, it was not hidden from view at the time from the people of the United States. I haven't seen any figures on the numbers of Japanese Americans who died while in internment camps or because of the camps. This would tend to indicate that it isn't a particularly high number, but the action was indefensible even if no one had died. These citizens were robbed of not only of their freedom, but also of their homes and businesses.
     

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