Help: rMBP 650M GPU Throttling on BootCamp

[sneak3]

Nice explanations, think I'm getting it now!

1- What if I'm working with 3d packages, meaning I need both CPU power for renderings and GPU for real-time preview in viewports, would you still recommend capping the CPU at 95%? I imagine losing 5% + turbo boost would cause a huge impact on raw CPU power right?

2- That's a solution for Windows, but how about OS X, anything similar we could do over there?

3- Can we expect nvidia to release drivers for both OSX and Windows in order to fix that or it's not at their end at all?

 

[x3n0n1c]

Nice explanations, think I'm getting it now!

1- What if I'm working with 3d packages, meaning I need both CPU power for renderings and GPU for real-time preview in viewports, would you still recommend capping the CPU at 95%? I imagine losing 5% + turbo boost would cause a huge impact on raw CPU power right?

It is a rather significant performance hit, but a ~2GHz quad core CPU is still rather powerful.

2- That's a solution for Windows, but how about OS X, anything similar we could do over there?

Without a direct quote, I am not sure which point you are referring to.

3- Can we expect nvidia to release drivers for both OSX and Windows in order to fix that or it's not at their end at all?

From what has been said, it is a power management feature that apple has set in firmware. If this is in fact the case, it is up to Apple to change it back.

See above

 

[sneak3]

See above

Hmm so I believe this is more of an overall fix for gaming, specifically, wouldn't you say? Or for things that rely much more on GPU than CPU let's say.

And I was talking about the 95% power setting reduction fix, that's for windows only, but there's no such option at the OS X side.

 

[x3n0n1c]

Hmm so I believe this is more of an overall fix for gaming, specifically, wouldn't you say? Or for things that rely much more on GPU than CPU let's say.

And I was talking about the 95% power setting reduction fix, that's for windows only, but there's no such option at the OS X side.

You can use the following utility to toggle turboboost on and off for some extra headroom. Or you can refer to one of my earlier posts showing how to disable hyperthreading and/or cores on your CPU in OS X.

http://www.rugarciap.com/turbo-boost-switcher-for-os-x/

 

[exnihilodub]

I also wanted to point out that another way you can help this issue is to download xcode, and use the preferences in the included Instruments app to disable a core or two of your CPU.

As an example, running CineBench with all 4 core/8 threads active, my CPU consumes 50w. When I disable 2 of those core bringing the system down to 2 cores/4 threads, power consumption falls to 30w.

Depending on the game, the extra cores will not provide much benefit. Doing this will also leave more power and thermal headroom for turboboost to clock the two remaining cores even closer to their max.

Cheers.

thanks but counter to what you've stated in the previous entry, My power consumption never hits that 85 W mark. (only hits that power consmp. in stress testing and that's a reasonable thing for me). in gaming conditions, it rises up to ~60, stays there for a while and drops drastically to 30-40's. and there's no way to tell if that drop is the cause of throttling, or throttling is the cause for power drop.

 

[x3n0n1c]

thanks but counter to what you've stated in the previous entry, My power consumption never hits that 85 W mark. (only hits that power consmp. in stress testing and that's a reasonable thing for me). in gaming conditions, it rises up to ~60, stays there for a while and drops drastically to 30-40's. and there's no way to tell if that drop is the cause of throttling, or throttling is the cause for power drop.

What are you using to measure your power consumption?

 

[exnihilodub]

power

I'm using AIDA64's stability graph. the power tab. I can't see the GPU consumption but I can see the CPU package,CPU,CPU IA cores,CPU Uncore,Battery charge rate and the "Overall Power Supply" (which maxes out at 80-85W on stress testing). Right now my macbook is charging, I'll upload some screenshots of it while gaming as soon as it finishes.

 

[exnihilodub]

the last 2 timestamp brackets are the time between I played the game and alt+tabbed out. the first 2 really close time brackets are the time i launched the game initially.

these are the other tabs:

http://s10.postimg.org/xd1erl9q1/stabilitytesttemp.png
http://s2.postimg.org/3qsst9qa1/stabilitytestfans.png
http://s28.postimg.org/p1zni0pdp/stabilitytestvolts.png
http://s15.postimg.org/ghrgoe457/stabilitytestpower.png
http://s15.postimg.org/p3uq8zg57/stabilitytestclocks.png
http://s18.postimg.org/mx4s2zcqx/stabilityteststats.png


I've only set 95% max cpu on this test. no other clock modulations or gpu underclocking was done. I played Arma 3 for a short while and heavy throttling happened. it's hard to determine which one of these graphs is the culprit.

 

[exnihilodub]

well, I threw a t-shirt on top of the macbook and observed the FPS. It downed itself to 16-17 FPS but the heats were still around 70's! i took the t-shirt off, the fps backed up to 24 but with no radical change in temperatures..

Is there any other temp diode that AIDA doesn't show to me? or do some peripherals like PCH etc. have an upper limit of 70C?

 

[x3n0n1c]

the last 2 timestamp brackets are the time between I played the game and alt+tabbed out. the first 2 really close time brackets are the time i launched the game initially.

Image

these are the other tabs:

http://s10.postimg.org/xd1erl9q1/stabilitytesttemp.png
http://s2.postimg.org/3qsst9qa1/stabilitytestfans.png
http://s28.postimg.org/p1zni0pdp/stabilitytestvolts.png
http://s15.postimg.org/ghrgoe457/stabilitytestpower.png
http://s15.postimg.org/p3uq8zg57/stabilitytestclocks.png
http://s18.postimg.org/mx4s2zcqx/stabilityteststats.png


I've only set 95% max cpu on this test. no other clock modulations or gpu underclocking was done. I played Arma 3 for a short while and heavy throttling happened. it's hard to determine which one of these graphs is the culprit.

Nothing here seems so high that the system should throttle, but as soon as the Power Supply gets near its upper limit, things start slowly falling.

Maybe your power supply is bad? Try doing the test on battery power and see if things work out the same.

 

[exnihilodub]

Nothing here seems so high that the system should throttle, but as soon as the Power Supply gets near its upper limit, things start slowly falling.

Maybe your power supply is bad? Try doing the test on battery power and see if things work out the same.

no it happens when it's on battery power too.. Also shouldn't it go back up after it drops drastically and then fluctuate high&low if that's a PSU issue? it just sits at 34 W. If I alt+tab out and go back in game, again it rises up and drops down. If i alt-tab out, what a while and then go back to game, It stays high a little longer before dropping down. also My GF has a classic macbook pro 15 inch and while playing the same game under same settings, she never experiences any drop. Also she has temps like 95-102C. I thought that machine had a lower PS limit than mine.

Im really out of options here guys. I'd appreciate any help or any clue that i should try.

 

[exnihilodub]

I've turned down brightness to test the headroom and after the throttling, I've ramped it back up. Seems like it has nothing to do with "hitting the limit"

 

[ha1o2surfer]

Nice tests.. it's interesting to see how little power the macbook pro uses. I always compare this to my laptop as it has similar specs and I see power consumption easily over 130 watts under full load. It's not magic the macbook uses less, something is being throttled for sure. It's easy to tell in a luxmark benchmark as everyone with even top tier quad cores and a 750m get very low scores compared to me.

Right now running some distributed computing projects in boinc and its drawing 118 watts with my CPU set to 50% usage and GPU pegged.

another thing to bear in mind here.. that graph might not ever state the CPU is throttling because Intel CPUs have a feature called cTDP (configurable TDP) Apple can drop this to whatever it chooses and that becomes the throttle point.. meaning, it's throttling the TDP and not throttling due to temps. Apple CAN'T control the power usage of the GPU like that, it can only drop the core clock and maybe the voltage.

Laptop is a G46VW with a GTX 660m and a 3840QM.

 

[exnihilodub]

another thing to bear in mind here.. that graph might not ever state the CPU is throttling because Intel CPUs have a feature called cTDP (configurable TDP) Apple can drop this to whatever it chooses and that becomes the throttle point.. meaning, it's throttling the TDP and not throttling due to temps. Apple CAN'T control the power usage of the GPU like that, it can only drop the core clock and maybe the voltage.

Laptop is a G46VW with a GTX 660m and a 3840QM.

If you look at the other images i posted as links above, you'll see that i can see the CPU clock being throttled.

Now i mainly think that's a thermal issue because when i block the heatsinks and cause the temps to rise up, nothing rises in those graphs temperature-wise (actually all the temps DROP like crazy when I do this "induced heat test"), but the FPS significantly drops to 15-14. There may be a thermal diode that doesn't report back to the OS but only works internally for thermal throttling..

 

[ha1o2surfer]

If you look at the other images i posted as links above, you'll see that i can see the CPU clock being throttled.

Now i mainly think that's a thermal issue because when i block the heatsinks and cause the temps to rise up, nothing rises in those graphs temperature-wise (actually all the temps DROP like crazy when I do this "induced heat test"), but the FPS significantly drops to 15-14. There may be a thermal diode that doesn't report back to the OS but only works internally for thermal throttling..

When the TDP is being throttled, well throttling is the wrong word; it's more just being lowered, the base clock can no longer be held. So naturally, the clock speed drops as the power consumption of the CPU is being lowered.

 

[exnihilodub]

When the TDP is being throttled, well throttling is the wrong word; it's more just being lowered, the base clock can no longer be held. So naturally, the clock speed drops as the power consumption of the CPU is being lowered.

i don't see how this description is supposed to help anyone? Could you please clarify your point? I know the clock speed will go down as soon as the power is cut, and the power will be cut as soon as the clock speed goes down.. and you can't just lower a "thermal design power".

 

[ha1o2surfer]

The Firmware can artificially lower the over TDP of the CPU which will dictate how much power it will be allowed to draw. As you know, the higher the clock speed the more power it needs.

I'll use my 3840QM for example.. The base clock of 2.8ghz requires a minimum TDP of 32watts. If the TDP is set to 17 watts, my max clock now becomes 1.4Ghz. if I am turbo boosting to 3.8ghz, my TDP is set to 72 watts automatically. Once a TDP has been lowered it's not considered thermal throttling anymore. If the TDP is not being lowered then it's considered thermal throttling.

As you can see in my BIOS, the different levels of TDP's I have customized. I can set the TDP Down to 0 If i want and the CPU will never go any higher than 1.2ghz. I believe this is what Apple is doing behind the scenes. It really hurts the performance of even the latest gen 15in with the Iris Pro and 750m as my laptop is far better performing due to having the power headroom. (I have an HD 4000 + GTX660M + 3840QM)

 

[x3n0n1c]

I have been looking through some reviews, and it would seem that the throttling is largely confined to windows and not ot OS X.

It is hard to say what is actually causing this, but something within windows (be it a driver or built in feature) is throttling the chip.

You can run your same laptop within OS X at temperatures hitting 100 degrees C and the throttling will be minor.

Only thing I can suggest at this point is to install the GPU driver that comes with bootcamp and see if the issue persists. It is possible apple has changed some settings to keep performance up that are not present in the standard drivers from nvidia.

Cheers.

 

[Lanthom88]

Two month ago i had the same issues on my 1 1/2 year old rMBP. Cleaning the fans and getting rid of the dust completely fixed the throttling on bootcamp for me. Before that, i had horrible performance drops (more like spikes) while monitoring with gpu-z. Gpu-Temps rarely exceeded 70 degress.

I don't know if cleaning the fans etc. has been already suggested, but at least i can confirm that it fixed my gpu throttling on bootcamp.

I have to admit that i am a heavy smoker, so i had quite a lot of dust inside my rMBP.....

 

[exnihilodub]

Two month ago i had the same issues on my 1 1/2 year old rMBP. Cleaning the fans and getting rid of the dust completely fixed the throttling on bootcamp for me. Before that, i had horrible performance drops (more like spikes) while monitoring with gpu-z. Gpu-Temps rarely exceeded 70 degress.

I don't know if cleaning the fans etc. has been already suggested, but at least i can confirm that it fixed my gpu throttling on bootcamp.

I have to admit that i am a heavy smoker, so i had quite a lot of dust inside my rMBP.....

same here man.. also as i said numerous times before.. blocking the heat vents with a thin t-shirt drops the clocks the same way (actually heavier). but "there is nothing showing an increase in temps". The only thing i see is a "DROP" in GPU/CPU temps and clocks. I've tried like 6 other temp monitoring programs both in bootcamp and OSX and none of them shows this. There MUST be a heat diode that SMC doesn't report to the OS, or one of these pheripherals near the heat vents have a upper limit of 55-60C.


I've found out if i downclock my GPU clock to 696, I can play sometimes, but sometimes it throttles again and I'll have to drop more(It depends on the time of day/temperature). I have no air conditioning on this house and the current temperature/humidity in my city is like 30C to %78 humidity. (I'm just sweating here as I write this down) I've found a way to simulate more heat on my computer. If I find a way to make it even cooler, I'll try that and make sure it is heat related..

My question for you is, Did you clean the fans by yourself? I suppose the only way is to get it to a genious. (I'm tech savvy on this kind of stuff, I just don't have any access to pentalobe screws and was just wondering if it is possible to clean them by blowing compressed air through the air intakes/heat vents).

 

[x3n0n1c]

same here man.. also as i said numerous times before.. blocking the heat vents with a thin t-shirt drops the clocks the same way (actually heavier). but "there is nothing showing an increase in temps". The only thing i see is a "DROP" in GPU/CPU temps and clocks. I've tried like 6 other temp monitoring programs both in bootcamp and OSX and none of them shows this. There MUST be a heat diode that SMC doesn't report to the OS, or one of these pheripherals near the heat vents have a upper limit of 55-60C.


I've found out if i downclock my GPU clock to 696, I can play sometimes, but sometimes it throttles again and I'll have to drop more(It depends on the time of day/temperature). I have no air conditioning on this house and the current temperature/humidity in my city is like 30C to %78 humidity. (I'm just sweating here as I write this down) I've found a way to simulate more heat on my computer. If I find a way to make it even cooler, I'll try that and make sure it is heat related..

My question for you is, Did you clean the fans by yourself? I suppose the only way is to get it to a genious. (I'm tech savvy on this kind of stuff, I just don't have any access to pentalobe screws and was just wondering if it is possible to clean them by blowing compressed air through the air intakes/heat vents).

I suggest ordering this screwdriver kit. It's great to have around in general and includes the two pentalobe bits needed to open MacBooks and iPhones.

In order to full clean the fans you will need to take the fans out of the laptop. You can blow the surface dust off with air but the caked on dust needs to be removed by a brush.

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B009MKGRQA/ref=oh_details_o08_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Cheers.

 

[ha1o2surfer]

I have been looking through some reviews, and it would seem that the throttling is largely confined to windows and not ot OS X.

It is hard to say what is actually causing this, but something within windows (be it a driver or built in feature) is throttling the chip.

You can run your same laptop within OS X at temperatures hitting 100 degrees C and the throttling will be minor.

Only thing I can suggest at this point is to install the GPU driver that comes with bootcamp and see if the issue persists. It is possible apple has changed some settings to keep performance up that are not present in the standard drivers from nvidia.


Cheers.

It is present in OSX as well, just run a Luxmark benchmark that uses all CPUs + GPUs. You will get a lower score than a comparable windows pc

 

[x3n0n1c]

It is present in OSX as well, just run a Luxmark benchmark that uses all CPUs + GPUs. You will get a lower score than a comparable windows pc

GPU performance is lower in OS X than Windows, a direct comparison of results do not indicate throttling.

Just as an example.

The 750m in my mbp scores 52fps in the OpenGL benchmark in Cinebench r15. In windows, the same hardware scores around 62fps.

At no point does the system get anywhere hot enough during that short test to start throttling.

 

[ha1o2surfer]

GPU performance is lower in OS X than Windows, a direct comparison of results do not indicate throttling.

Just as an example.

The 750m in my mbp scores 52fps in the OpenGL benchmark in Cinebench r15. In windows, the same hardware scores around 62fps.

At no point does the system get anywhere hot enough during that short test to start throttling.

We are actually trying to compare throttling while both CPU and GPU are being loaded. I agree with your statement, though.

If both are being loaded up in luxmark (which I figured was a fair benchmark given apple supports and maintains OpenCL) then we see throttling evident in OSX.

 

[x3n0n1c]

We are actually trying to compare throttling while both CPU and GPU are being loaded. I agree with your statement, though.

If both are being loaded up in luxmark (which I figured was a fair benchmark given apple supports and maintains OpenCL) then we see throttling evident in OSX.

Intel Power Gadget can be used to monitor CPU clocks in OS X. I have not looked for a way to monitor GPU clocks, though i'm sure some method exists somewhere.

Those would have to be checked.