Homeland Security Pork

Discussion in 'Community' started by sturm375, Nov 20, 2002.

  1. sturm375 macrumors 6502

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    #1
    I know yet another political thread. I just want you guys(non-gender specific) opinion about the 7 items tacked onto the Homland Security Department Bill. Let's see if I can remember all of them. BTW, I am against all of them, especially the invasion of priviacy one.

    1) Instead of making in mandatory for all contracts issued by the DHS to be fufilled by US contractors, now the Dept. Head can approve foreign contractors, thus avoiding US taxation.

    2) For the first couple of years, Texas A&M university gets all the research grants fro the DHS.

    3) Pay Raise for some government employees.

    4) Limited liability for Vaccene(sp?) preservative manufacturs. This one wipes clean all litagation pending on a manufacture whos product might cause childhood autism.

    5) The DHS no longer has to adhear to the Freedom of Information Act.

    6) Any government agency can track your internet activity (email and web); sometimes without a court warrent.

    7) Limited liability for the 2 companies responisbile for baggage screening at the Boston airport on 9/11. This again means that they can't be sued, and all current litigation is discontinued.


    Also, in addition to this, the Senate passed a bill the limits, if not removes the repayment responsibility of insurance companies in case of another terrorist attack. Instead, we the tax payers get to flip the bill, to some $90 Billion a pop. Why do we pay insurance premium again?:mad:
     
  2. wdlove macrumors P6

    wdlove

    Joined:
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    #2
    We need research to protect us, alot of evil in this world.

    There needs to be tort reform.

    Without some protection Vaccine makers won't produce enough medication, there is no medication currently made that doesn't have side effects, some are fatal. We have to look at the greater good.
     
  3. sturm375 thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #3
    Of course we need research, but wouldn't it be in all of our best intrests if the research grants were competitivly given out?

    I'm a libriatarian at heart, which means less government involvment in civil/coporate matters. Let the Judges and juries do there jobs.

    Again, if the public has no recourse against a coporation, through basic human greed, they will make money without concern toward the lives they may take. It was only through public outcries, with legal teeth, that we outlawed 12yr olds working in coal mines. We made it more expensive to continue practices, than to correct themselves. It is sad to say, but in the corporate world, money talks louder than lost lives.

    Just because there is a "greater good" doesn't mean we should silence the minorities.
     
  4. e-coli macrumors 68000

    e-coli

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    #4
    I used to be very attentive and active in politics and civil service, but since Bush has massacred the constitution, I have decided that we're on a rocket sled to being a corporate interest dictatorship.

    Now I don't even watch the news, or read about politics. Hell, I almost didn't vote in the mid-terms. What's the point, anyways. Bush is going to do whatever he wants, and Congress is stupid enough to be hoodwinked into playing out his agenda.

    It's so sad. Truly heartbreaking. And the American people are too ignorant to see what's happening.
     
  5. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #5
    How do you figure he has massacred the Constitution? Please enlighten me on this one.
     
  6. sturm375 thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #6
    I don't know if this is what e-coli was refering to, but: it's called the 6th amendment. The one where the government can't imprison people without due process. It's been almost a full year that Jose Padillia(sp?) aka "the Dirty Bomber" has been imprisoned in a navel brig off the coast of one of the Carolinas. By order of the President (that would be "W"), he was "decleared" an enemy combantant, and thus imprisoned without trial. The Constitution does not allow the executive branch to become Judge & Jury.

    By the way, federal courts have repeatedly asked the Feds to return Jose, and the Feds have refused. Of course that is why he is on a Brig in the Atlantic. Federal courts don't have jurisdiction.

    That's my major constitutional beef with "W," and why he will never receive a vote from me.
     
  7. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #7
    The 5th ammendment guarantees due process. However, the 5th ammendment states that "no one shall be deprived of life liberty or property without Due Process, EXCEPT in cases rising in the land and naval militia and during times of war"

    By declaring someone an enemy combatant, it falls into the 5th ammendments guidelines. He is doint what is necessary to protect the people of the US and that is the number 1 job of the President right now.

    We will try these people, but it will be before a military court after they have gained all possible intel from them.

    They are not picking up people off the street that haven't done anything, they are getting terrorists that would love nothing more than to kill us all.
     
  8. sturm375 thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #8
    If, he is an enemy combantant, that's fine. What I am saying is that the executive branch has no power to declear a US citizen an enemy combantant. That must go through a court system, because essentually they are declearing the citizen a traiter, without a trial.

    Also, there is a provision in the constitution that says that if a civilian is in questionable status with the law, and there is a civilian court system in place, they must be tried in the civilian court system.

    I am all for protecting America from terrorists, but not at the cost of our liberties which hundreds of thousands of soldiers have died for. I will not cheapen their sacrifice, so I can sleep a little better. [/Rant off]
     
  9. sturm375 thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #9
    4th, 5th, & 6th Amendments

    Parts of all of these apply:

     
  10. diorio macrumors 6502a

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    #10
    Just wondering, but why is your font so small? I can barely read it and I have to squint to do so. Are you trying to be different or what?
     
  11. atomwork macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2001
    Location:
    Miami Beach
    #11
    wrong way

    Actually its not quite right. Protecting means for me being afraid against something what occurs thru our action. Why not swifting US foreign policy torwards peace and well being in the middle east and stop only supporting Israel. It would make greate sense to "help" both parties, no matter what they did. And there is a big grey area. The USA media not necessary tells it how it's really is. Ever noticed that!!!! Watch more Europe TV and you get the bigger picture.

    You can also read it up what the USA things its in their best interest by reading the current annual report from the Pentagon to the Congress:

    expanding terretory and picking up natual resorces, like OIL IN IRAK!

    I don't mean by this now that terrorism is legitim, no its not, but there are better ways to deal with it that that crazy madmen from the white house does it.



    Just my 2 cents;)
     
  12. MrMacMan macrumors 604

    MrMacMan

    Joined:
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    Location:
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    #12
    Well the homeland security department will be the hugest disaster since the fall of the roman empire.
    I swear there are like 100 Gov't agencys in 1.
    I was like WTF can they DO THAT, FBI, CIA, and like everything else dealing with immigration to planes to ships to the everything.
    EVERYTHING WILL Be taken No Gov't OFFICE WILL SURVIVE! :(
    This deparment is gonna collapse really baddly.

    It is really bad that the gov't can now without me or any judge knowing easily take information off my computer or through the internet. Well now they can legally look at my e-mails (if I am looking at these articles right).
    YAY Lack of Privacy! ;) :D
     
  13. alex_ant macrumors 68020

    alex_ant

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    #13
    Just wondering... when does it end? (The War on Terrorism)

    Certainly the government can't expect that their efforts will result in the worldwide elimination of all terrorism? Which means that if the US doesn't surrender, the "war" will continue indefinitely. Which means an indefinite suspension of the 5th Amendment.

    I don't understand why the detainees in Guantanemo haven't been declared POWs. If this is indeed a war on terrorism, then it makes sense that these guys should be treated as POWs. It's like the government is taking advantage of these nebulous parts of the legal system and using them to its advantage. The US says it's at war when it's convenient, and it says it isn't when it's not.

    As for doing what's necessary to protect the citizens of the US... I'm sure this could have been accomplished without rubber-stamping Big Brother, no?
     
  14. alex_ant macrumors 68020

    alex_ant

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    #14
    Here's what concerns me

    I'm against the Homeland Security Act, and generally against the Bush administration, which means I could be classified by the government as a dissenter. I'm criticising the government, and the way the follow-the-herd thought process of those in power goes right now, it's:

    Alex_ant criticises the government.
    Terrorists criticize the government
    Therefore, alex_ant is a terrorist.

    I could have my e-mail read. Anything I say in my e-mail critical of the government could be used against me. I could have all the files on my hard drive searched. This Department of Homeland Security, if it wanted to, could root through all my IM logs. Including the most private ones with my girlfriend. (And delete/destroy whatever it wanted, of course.) It could tap my phone, and ditto with that. It could do all this without even telling me. I could be arrested and detained indefinitely without the right to trial or even the right to speak to a lawyer. All because I'm critical of the government --> and therefore a terrorist sympathizer.

    As a matter of fact, it's not even important that one is critical of the government. You could be the best Republican lapdog in the world, who just happened to unknowingly brush shoulders with a suspected associate of a suspected associate of a suspected terrorist sympathizer while walking down the sizewalk the other day. Hope you have a good lawyer, because you're going to jail until the DHS deems you no longer a suspect. If it does. Wait - it doesn't matter whether or not you have a lawyer, because you won't be allowed one. (Because you're a terrorist animal you see, and the Constitution only applies to real people, not animals.)

    The only thing that's keeping the government from doing this to me is that there are too many others like me. Actually, the only thing that's keeping me from believing that the government IS NOT doing this is my resistance to paranoia. (Because they could very well be without me knowing it.) Echelon... the who-knows-how-many square miles of underground NSA supercomputers... the consolidation of power of the PATRIOT act... it's all very scary. Didn't Ben Franklin warn us against this?
     
  15. wdlove macrumors P6

    wdlove

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    #15
    I strongly disagree! I have faith in George Bush, Dick Cheney, & their staff.
    Need to get rid of duplication, waste, & abuse.
     
  16. SPG macrumors 65816

    SPG

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    #16
    Why? What do you base that faith in? The fact that they are Republicans? And that you're a Republican? There has been far too much evidence of political and corporate influences in this legislation that people, even the people who believe that we need more protection, would be able to back this.
    The price of freedom is eternal vigilence, and America is asleep at the wheel.

    edit: link added:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,842997,00.html
    Heeeee's baaaack! The guy who was supposed to go to jail for the Iran Contra affair is now heading the most Big Brother of the Big Brother positions.
     
  17. sturm375 thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #17
    Re: Here's what concerns me

    It's not just the DHS, any government agency can now servail your email/internet usage. They cannot access your computer without a warrent, nor can they tap your phones without a warrent, just email/internet activities.

    To those who think the DHS will get rid of govt. duplication & abuse, here is in a nutshell what the DHS will do:

    1) Only the INS will be dismanteled, from which at least 3 new agencies within the DHS will be formed.

    2) Coast Guard is now under the control of the DHS.

    3) Some departments from the FBI, CIA, NSA, EPA, DEA, ATF, FCC, FAA, FTC will be incorporated in the DHS. None of these agencies will be dismanteled. They will continue to function much like they currently do.

    4) All reports will go to the DHS, who will determine which other agencies will receive these reports. If this were not run by the government, I'd give it a 50/50 chance of working. Since it is run by the government, I give it 0 chance of working.

    5) Last, but not least, this give the executive brance unprecedented power over us, the people.
     
  18. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #18
    Because we are not in a declared war. See Democrats gave away our right to delcare war when they joined the precious United Nations. :)

    Furthermore, you are all acting like this is a slippery slope. that all of our freedoms are going to the side, and that Bush is the anti-Christ. Jesus people, grow up. They are not going to monitor and follow your Grand Mother's e-mail. They are going to look at Mohammad, and Siek, and etc. Get the point. Racial profiling. Nope. Covering the asses of 285 million people yep.

    Anyone that thinks otherwise is just way too mislead.
     
  19. e-coli macrumors 68000

    e-coli

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    #19
    Since Sept. 11th, we have seen a dissolution of the attorney client privilege, we are no longer entitled to protection against wiretapping, and unwarranted search and seizure, anyone can be imprisoned for any amount of time and denied due process, the Congressional War Powers Act (not part of the constitution) has been annulled...All under the guise of protecting us from "terrorism" (which the government...ANY government...has yet to define because it is a subjective concept).

    Now, the "Dept. of Homeland Security" (Big Brother, to you and me), will now begin collecting a vast database of all of your web surfing, spending, medical records, phone records etc. etc. And they're exempt from the Freedom of Information Act (which doesn't mean anything anyways because the Bush administration has put Lock and Key on boatloads of previously public info anyways). How convenient. :rolleyes:

    These facts are undeniable. This, to me, is an outrage. All lumped into one, it's an atrocity. The people have been hoodwinked while the Bush administration uses fear as a tool to impose their agenda.

    Disgusting.

    Harumph.
     
  20. sturm375 thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #20
    There is no provision in the US Constitution allowing only the "good" guys get the rights granted by God. That's key, the government is not there to provide rights, just protect the ones given to us by God. They are also not given power to take rights away, period. Imagine that, people who don't see things your way, or even the current administration's way, Have Rights!

    As a matter of fact, it could be interpruted to mean that all people, regardless of whether or not they are US citizens, are entilted by the Creator, to these rights.

    Have we decleared war, YES! It's not an official declearation, because there is no nation to attack. The Constitutional Declearation of War must specify a nation, we don't have a nation to put in that blank. Congress gave Bush Carte Blanch to do whatever he deems necessary to fight the War on Terrorism. That sounds like a declearation of war to me.
     
  21. e-coli macrumors 68000

    e-coli

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    #21
    Re: Re: Here's what concerns me

    The CIA and FBI have no representation in the new DHS.
     
  22. sturm375 thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #22
    Re: Re: Re: Here's what concerns me

    No, but some of the "sub-departments" of the FBI, and CIA, among other, will be transfered to DHS, departments. So the FBI will still be an entity unto itself, however I think the counter-terrorism department of the FBI will now be under the DHS umbrella.
     
  23. wdlove macrumors P6

    wdlove

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  24. sturm375 thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #24
    I said it Could be interpurted that way. Not that it should be, nor that it is.


    Yes! My first thread with the "Ugly" seal of approval! I feel so... Honored, or maybe dirty.:D
     
  25. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #25
    What a load of crap! No Right is absolute. You are going to give a foriegn national an absolute right to conduct activites that can take the lives of American citizens. And no, we haven't declared war because there is not a country, but because under our being part of the UN we cannot declare war. We declared war on the Barbary Pirates, and the last time I checked they did not have a country!
     

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