How much is too much?

[hulugu]

The problem is, most people who have them think they "need" an SUV to go 10 blocks down the street for a quart of milk. Unfortunately, they fit rather well with a large segment of American culture, where style is valued more than substance. Unless you're hauling large quantities of cargo on a regular basis, you don't "need" a pickup truck with an with an enclosed rear and a $10,000 markup.

Bingo. The SUV is a great example of style over substance. Few people need the ground-clearance, the larger tires, and the heavy frame construction of the average SUV. People buy them, I think, because they can't bring themselves to buy a mini-van or a station-wagon, even though for all effective purposes an SUV is used as a large, awkward station-wagon.

That's not to say that no one 'needs' an SUV, but I think a 4-wheel drive Subaru is a much better vehicle for snow and typical driving than any truck-based SUV.

 

[Mord]

to the OP, what car do you drive, it's not just SUV's that guzzle gas.


SUV's are completely silly, if you need a truck get a truck. but driveing your own personal tank does not make you look cool, it makes you look like an idiot.

 

[CorvusCamenarum]

Bingo. The SUV is a great example of style over substance. Few people need the ground-clearance, the larger tires, and the heavy frame construction of the average SUV. People buy them, I think, because they can't bring themselves to buy a mini-van or a station-wagon, even though for all effective purposes an SUV is used as a large, awkward station-wagon.

That's not to say that no one 'needs' an SUV, but I think a 4-wheel drive Subaru is a much better vehicle for snow and typical driving than any truck-based SUV.

Cars have always been an American status and image symbol. You'd be surprised how many high-dollar vehicles I see parked outside the housing projects.

Minivans aren't cool because they conjure up the image of a middle-aged family guy who feels emasculated partly because his wife made him trade in his sports car.

If someone made an MTV video with "rappers" riding around in a tricked out minivan, they'd pop up everywhere.

 

[beatsme]

Bingo. The SUV is a great example of style over substance. Few people need the ground-clearance, the larger tires, and the heavy frame construction of the average SUV. People buy them, I think, because they can't bring themselves to buy a mini-van or a station-wagon, even though for all effective purposes an SUV is used as a large, awkward station-wagon.

I drive a compact, and I can't stand SUV's. You can't see past them...they're freakin' huge, and I wonder a lot about the relative skill of the driver(s). My one constant fear is that I'm going to get rammed i.e. turned into mulch by one because the driver didn't see my little twilight blue runabout.

 

[Danksi]

If someone made an MTV video with "rappers" riding around in a tricked out minivan, they'd pop up everywhere.

It'd take more than that for us to get a minivan!

I drive a compact, and I can't stand SUV's. You can't see past them...they're freakin' huge, and I wonder a lot about the relative skill of the driver(s).

I think there's a general mis-conception SUV's are safer, because of their size... they're not.

 

[Mord]

on average your safer in a small car than an SUV. obviously if you had a head on crash you'd get owned, but they would be more so owned.

if you were both in SUV's you'd both be screwed more as all that energy in that momentum needs to be expelled and you'll probably end up rolling over.

 

[crazycat]

I beleave that this is a problem that the government should tackel not normal people like you and me.

 

[iGav]

the first thing the girl said when I got out of the car was to tell me how much of a gas guzzler it was...

I'd have asked her if she used tampons.

 

[carbonmotion]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1586482033/104-1744614-7139965?v=glance&n=283155

He's right about that... i enjoy driving SUVs because they ride higher, which makes driving long distances more pleasent. That in itself, however, is not worth the price tag or the gouge at the pump. My next car will be a sport Mazda Speed 6. I would probably buy hybrids if they were priced like regular cars and there are federal laws in place about how to dispose the Li-On batteries

 

[Glen Quagmire]

I beleave that this is a problem that the government should tackel not normal people like you and me.

And if the government doesn't care about the environment, like the current administration in the US, what then?

The environment is too important to be left solely for governments to sort out. The experience of Hurricane Katrina last year should indicate that we face a far greater threat from Mother Nature than we do from international terrorism.

Every little thing you can do to save energy or preserve resources helps. It doesn't take much effort to turn a light off when it's not required, to recycle tin cans and glass bottles, to drive more economically (no heavy acceleration or breaking).

If you don't really care about the environment and think that you have no role to play. then that's really rather sad (and naive).

 

[thedude110]

IMO Hybrid cars are for the 'rich'.

I'd say they're more for the trendy and, generally speaking, the faux-environmentally conscious.

That's not an indictment of anyone who drives a hybrid, but a statement that, in my experience, many who drive hybrids care a lot about looking like they're caring.

 

[mactastic]

I'd say they're more for the trendy and, generally speaking, the faux-environmentally conscious.

That's not an indictment of anyone who drives a hybrid, but a statement that, in my experience, many who drive hybrids care a lot about looking like they're caring.

IOW, they enjoy the smell of their own farts?

 

[hulugu]

I'd say they're more for the trendy and, generally speaking, the faux-environmentally conscious.

That's not an indictment of anyone who drives a hybrid, but a statement that, in my experience, many who drive hybrids care a lot about looking like they're caring.

There's some truth to this, I think, but at the same time every Hybrid car sold is a message to the car companies that MPG matters again, and this creates a market for not only hybrids, but also other ways of building a car, like putting electric motors on the wheels (no transmission to haul around), and other ways to make them more efficient (like GM's Power-on-demand, which shuts off cylinders at cruising speed). We can't get rid of the car in the US, but we can certaintly make the ecological footprint much smaller for each vehicle and this will create results.

Someone earlier mentioned this was a government problem, and you're right to a point. We can see the CFC and Lead Gasoline legislation as solutions to air pollution through public concern and policy. We have to work the problem on both ends. By being good consumers we create opportunities for companies that create products we want, and by being good citizens we create a need for policy that enforces this need. Carrot and stick.

So, if you're about to buy a Honda Accord, buy the hybrid if you can. If you 'need' an SUV take a look at the Ford Escape Hybrid or Jeep's Diesel Liberty. Even a small change will add up.

 

[mactastic]

So, if you're about to buy a Honda Accord, buy the hybrid if you can. If you 'need' an SUV take a look at the Ford Escape Hybrid or Jeep's Diesel Liberty. Even a small change will add up.

Only problem with hybrids is that they still cost more even with 5 years of gas factored in than a comparably equipped ICE car.

If you're looking to save gas AND money, buy a small car like Honda's Fit instead of a hybrid. If you're looking to save gas while paying a premium on the vehicle, by all means, buy a hybrid.

 

[Abstract]

Perhaps an SUV is a very bad example (a hummer would have been worse).. but if you need a pickup or heavy duty vehicle for your work or your way of life, then fine... SUV's are generally bad at most stuff.

Judging from his past threads (and I'm not even sure if it's him who said this), but his father overworks, travels over 1 hour to get to work each day in his SUV, and judging by his mum in this thread, she doesn't seem the off-roading type. But those groceries are oh so heavy.

My parents are quite good about it. Actually, my stepfather is. My mum hates living in a cold house in the winter, but she doesn't seem to understand that using slippers and wearing more clothes is the answer.

 

[Leareth]

I thought the hybrids did not use any gas below a certain speed which made them great for city dwellers.

I can't stand the ignorant tree huggers who protest everything with out providing a working alternative.

And completely off topic I can't stand the granola munching, treehugging vegans who insist that eggs are "chicken abortions", i guess most of them failed biology in high school...

 

[jelloshotsrule]

I thought the hybrids did not use any gas below a certain speed which made them great for city dwellers.

I can't stand the ignorant tree huggers who protest everything with out providing a working alternative.

And completely off topic I can't stand the granola munching, treehugging vegans who insist that eggs are "chicken abortions", i guess most of them failed biology in high school...

generalize much?

yes, though, hybrids are good in urban areas, especially.

 

[Danksi]

I thought the hybrids did not use any gas below a certain speed which made them great for city dwellers.

I can't stand the ignorant tree huggers who protest everything with out providing a working alternative.

And completely off topic I can't stand the granola munching, treehugging vegans who insist that eggs are "chicken abortions", i guess most of them failed biology in high school...

My understanding is that hybrids use the electric motor as a braking system, generating charge for the batteries.

You still need to use gas, though a reduced ammount, to charge the batteries and run the car on 'electric'.

 

[ibook30]

Only problem with hybrids is that they still cost more even with 5 years of gas factored in than a comparably equipped ICE car.

If you're looking to save gas AND money, buy a small car like Honda's Fit instead of a hybrid. If you're looking to save gas while paying a premium on the vehicle, by all means, buy a hybrid.

I agree with you most of the time mactastic... but the price of a car is not the true cost of the car.

Hybrid cars cost more from the wallet, but cost the environment less, and eventually - the toll taken on the environment from less "friendly" vehicles will come out of our wallets.

I'm not trying to take away from your points- a small car is also a step in the right direction. And the current line of hybrids are not the ultimate answer. They are all leading up to new technologies and concepts that will ultimately save us money and a livable space.

"True cost" or "real cost" is an interesting concept- in order to factor in the "true cost" of an item, we need to include how it will be remediated. For instance, a 25 cent plastic ring from a gumball machine might require .5 cents worth of trash pick up fee from the city, and .5 cent cost in recycling fee... so the true cost becomes 26 cents. I pay for garbage pick up from the city (.5 cents) and someone (probly me too) will pay the .5 cents to remediate the land my plastic ring lands in. So the true cost is 26 cents. Take the same idea and apply it to a car - and the gas/oil it consumes, and the waste it emits - all this will enventually cost us something.

 

[hulugu]

Only problem with hybrids is that they still cost more even with 5 years of gas factored in than a comparably equipped ICE car.

If you're looking to save gas AND money, buy a small car like Honda's Fit instead of a hybrid. If you're looking to save gas while paying a premium on the vehicle, by all means, buy a hybrid.

I agree and I think there are great vehicles that are cheaper than a Hybrid, but it's a start and an incentive to perfect the hybrid systems and make the systems cheaper.
We're only at the second generation of the hybrids and it's going to take time.

 

[crazycat]

And if the government doesn't care about the environment, like the current administration in the US, what then?

The environment is too important to be left solely for governments to sort out. The experience of Hurricane Katrina last year should indicate that we face a far greater threat from Mother Nature than we do from international terrorism.

Every little thing you can do to save energy or preserve resources helps. It doesn't take much effort to turn a light off when it's not required, to recycle tin cans and glass bottles, to drive more economically (no heavy acceleration or breaking).

If you don't really care about the environment and think that you have no role to play. then that's really rather sad (and naive).

Vote for a government that cares a bit more.

When i say the government should take care of it i mean that it should take the first steps, a government behind a working idea would go a long way. People should do what they can but nothing major would be done unless A- the majority of people accept and work towards more enviromental frindly ways. B- The government starts to take steps to protect the enviroment.

I dont agree with people who stand beside supermarkets and yell at me becasue i eat meat (yes it happend by some enviroment group) or because i did not take public transport, they annoy me. If anything i would like to keeo the car on a few more mins to piss them off

 

[mactastic]

I agree with you most of the time mactastic... but the price of a car is not the true cost of the car.

Hybrid cars cost more from the wallet, but cost the environment less, and eventually - the toll taken on the environment from less "friendly" vehicles will come out of our wallets.

Oh I understand life-cycle costing, but I was speaking strictly from a consumer-purchasing POV. Besides, I'm not sure hybrids still come out cheaper once you factor the life-cycle costs of all the extra batteries that will get discarded at some point.

Although if we started pricing things in terms of their life-cycle costing, a lot of things we generally take for granted would suddenly seem very pricey...

 

[SharksFan22]

I've owned two SUVs -- yes, I admit I was victim to the thoughts of a more active lifestyle, doing more things, being able to drive to the snow without chains. Bah. I still can't believe I made that mistake not once but twice! Now I have a full size, four-door sedan and guess what -- there's just as much room in that car as in the SUV.

There are exceptions of course -- people with large families, those in agriculture, possibly salespeople with lots of merchandise -- but I think back to the 70s when I was a kid and everyone had full-size sedans or station wagons and never recall being short on space. Perhaps it's a symptom of today's society always wanting "more" or "bigger" of everything.

I've not seen any data to support it, but I wonder what the emissions difference is between say a Toyota Corolla and a Toyota Prius hybrid. I have to think that a modern, efficient combustion engine isn't all that much more polluting than a hybrid. Just a guess and I might be wrong, but it would be interesting to know.

 

[SharksFan22]

... you don't "need" a pickup truck with an with an enclosed rear and a $10,000 markup.

This made me think of one other point as to why SUVs and large trucks are so popular in the USA. The profit margins on SUVs is enormous compared to compact cars. Many years ago, a relative of mine was an executive for a major US automaker and told me about the cost of the vehicles relative to their sales price. The difference between the compact cars and the large, luxury vehicles (SUVs weren't popular yet) was less than 10% and the sold the small cars basically at the price is cost to manufacture them. The REAL money was in the larger cars, where they made thousands and thousands of dollars. Perhaps that's another part of the reason automakers promote and push sales of large vehicles instead of small ones.

 

[Sun Baked]

But to really make an impact, it's big business — the auto industry, manufacturing, etc. — that need to clean up their acts. 25mpg for a sedan? I know we can do better, even without hybrid technology. But the public has to be willing to live with certain limitations, including maybe sacrificing some of our disposable lifestyle.

25 MPG is sad for some of the medium-sized sedans, considering that a Crown Vic gets that and the huge Dodge/Frieghtliner Sprinter van gets about 25-28MPG.

One a big fat old RWD V-8 and the other a huge Van -- but they get decent MPG and one is a 10 passenger vehicle (sprinter).

Yes, we can get decent mileage on vehicles if we want to give up some "options" on the vehicles -- which have likely 500-1000 pounds of options crammed in -- and take the lower HP engine that is offered outside the US.

Hybrid tech is the vehicle equivalent of telling the fat person, here's a pill (or 12) that will lower your blood pressure and unclog you instead of forcing them on a diet.