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Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by makisushi, Sep 28, 2004.
I am not a big fan of michael moore, so I think I will like this movie.
I have no interest at all. If I were sent a free copy, then I might take a look.
What about this movie?
I would watch that movie for sure.
If you throw one or two facts into a movie it is more accurate than a Michael Moore 'documentary'.
I'm not a big fan of Michael Moore either, I think he does a great service to the documentary genre. If you want real docus check out the works of Errol Morris, another interesting one is 'Control Room' by Jehan Naujim.
Anyway here's a couple of links that fits in with this thread and might be of interest to some, moorelies.com and moorewatch.com.
Personally I think he's already had more attention and coverage then he deserves.
I like errol morris' work. Fog of War was a very interesting documentary.
It's amazing how he brought to life the abstract and what was basically an hour long sit down interview. Think it has more to do with Morris than the Interrotron ( ) though!.
The most disturbing thing about the film is how vividly it demonstrates the fallible nature and frailty of our leaders. I hope somebody in the White House watches it, and learns something from it.
I think most people miss the point of what Mr. Moor is trying to say.
Look at it this way, if I said big corporations where running this country and left it at that. Who would listen! You have to know how to play the game and that is what Mr. Moore does very good. He plays the politicians at their own game. They are full of **** and have an agenda and so does Mr. Moor. The only difference is that Mr. moor's agenda will have a less of an impact on you and your family. Big business is only there to make profit off the backs of poor people and if it take a few twists of the truth then so be it.
Or maybe not! let's just believe what the politicians and large corporations are telling us. After all they have our best interest at heart, don't they?
Mr. moore has an evil agenda because he uses the same tactics as the politicians and the corporate whores who are looking out for us!
This is exactly what makes these movies so interesting....Michael Moore is at all very different from the people he tries to expliot. I also think it is very funny that Michael Moore is a proclaimed anti-capitalist, yet he promotes the hell out of his movies in order to make money. I am sure he isn't turning down the millions Farenheit 9/11 made.
I have nothing against Moore's agenda. He is free to say whatever he wants. My problems with Moore are the tactics that he uses to get his point across. I don't like the fact that Moore creates what he calls 'documentaries' when they are not documentaries. His films are simply his opinions expressed in the most sensationalist way that he can come up with (i am not saying they are only his opinions). I realize that he does this because no one would pay any attention to his messages otherwise, but for many people it takes what credit there is away from his movies.
It is not that people don't get Michael Moore or understand his messages or what he is trying to do, but rather that they either don't like his message or don't like his methods of getting that message across.
Feel free to discuss Moore, but lets not let this thread digress into a political discussion.
at the risk of sending this to the Political Forums, does it matter that the current administration is using their tools to influence the public? The way I look at it documentarians on both sides are battling the RNC and the DNC for the truth. A number of documentaries have shown me even further that Bush & Co. are corrupt and self-serving in the war in Iraq.
Bush & Co, point to the safety of the US since 9-11. and i pint to Lisa's Tiger Rock as to the reason we are safe since 9-11. It protects against tigers and terrorists attacks.
Mr. Moore is no different in his methods than those he opposes. He has an agenda. But sometimes you have to fight fire with fire. Yes he makes loads of money on the side but I don't think that is what he is aiming for. Although it is a nice side effect for him. It is just like all of our heros in the movies they usually get revenge with the same weapon that was used against them.
Come election time you will hear a lot of bull from both sides of the campaigning parties. They are allowed to to sell crap in the name of their cause and people don't get to upset about it. Do you really think that if Mr. Moore was to portray the whole situation in a total bland and non sensationalist way, he would be heard. I think not. Documentaries are not the holy grail we would like to think they are. The majority have something to say. They are not an observation of how things are. They reflect the vision of the film maker. I doubt mother Teresa could have made a totally non biased documentary.
I agree with above posters.
He does what he has to do, and I don't think he does it for the money or fame. It would not be fair to assume that, however it is still a possibility.
As for the movie, I'd never see it.
And to whoever mentioned control room, I thought it was a great film.
Its politics, each side uses whatever they can to influence the public. I am not saying that Michael Moore is the only one spouting sensationalist rhetoric. Both sides are doing this, it is just that the republicans don't have someone that came out with a well-backed movie that had a studio advertising the hell out of it.
Nice reference to the tiger rock.
Moore is a great pamphleteer, not a great documentarist/film maker/hero to the people.
My biggest problem with Michael Moore is his dubious editing methods, which merge and collide scenes together. Moore's method is to fit smaller truths into a larger system of debatable truths. And despite what Frump is trying to argue, it's just not right to make stuff up no matter how honourable your intentions (again very debatable with Michael Moore). As Gandhi said, 'You must be the change you wish to see in the world'.
The studio tried to kill it at first and refused to promote it. Which in turn only helped the movie. You can sit on the fence and point at both sides but you will eventually feel the full force of the side who wins. Sitting on the fence does not make you immune!
I understand why Moore has to make his films so sensational, but that does not excuse it. Of course documtarians are biased, everyone is, but most of them do not intentionally try to create a sensationalized documentary to get their point across.
Errol Morris' films are not over-the-top, they try to show his vision as a director while being neutral. In Fog of War, Morris did not go easy on McNamara, nor did he try to make him out to be the cold, calculating, and unrepentent man that some think he is. Morris asked him questions, and let him talk. Morris pressed McNamara on certain issues, but was not overzealous about trying to show McNamara in any certain way.
I know that, but then the Weinstein bothers of Miramax bought the rights from Disney and set up their own company to produce it. Disney has been pissed at Miramax for years because it doesn't represent disney's corporate values.
A very good point but unfortunately film making is not some sort of sacred ground. just like the truth it can be shaped and shifted to fit the desired result. If you are smart enough to see through the manipulation then you can get to the truth. Do you think that George Bush has been absolutely truthful with America and the rest of the world! I don't think so. Mr. Moore does not think so. Many leaders and highly educated people don't think so.
Many poor and under educated people don't think so. Mr. Moore is not an Island.
I believe it is easier to argue the cool "i can see through your agenda" stuff than to actually try to see what somebody is trying to say.
Take away the sensational and all you are left with is just another 5 second blot on the journalistic landscape. In other words not interesting. Do you really think that is the best way to get your point across.
Let me tell you all of you something...
Politics is a business, no mater if you are right wing or left wing... everybody there is for the money. You would have to be very naive if you think the leaders are there for you.
Remember this words: Bush is going to winn the elections again, it is so obvious that the deal is already set between the two parties.
A lot of money is manage in this war and Bush have to resolve the problem some how, he is so deep in to crap that he is the only one who can manage what he has done.
Wow that makes me sad. The truth can be molded to what you want it to be, a bit of an oxymoron don't you think?
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. George lies so it's OK for Moore to follow suit, whilst condeming George for doing it? That lies don't matter, as long as the message gets across? I really am confused.
I'm not arguing the efficacy of Moore's methods to be 'cool'. I just happen to think it's dishonest.
You wrongly assume that only sensationalist journalism is interesting. If this is the case just stick to watching Jerry Springer everyday. It is possible to create documentarys with integrity, which are entertaining. Just look at examples like, The War Room, Capturing The Friedmans, The Thin Blue Line, Spellbound etc, etc. Remember fact is often stranger than fiction.
Sometimes a difference of opinion is deducible to a difference in taste. You seem to admire Moore for his 'ingenious' methods of getting the point across. I dislike him for it. It is not the messages he is trying to portray which rile me, it is his methods, which I feel undermines the potency of the message.
You have a point. Why else are the DNC and RNC trying to protect their pockets? It is sort of the along the "anti-union" training that I went through. One point that stuck with me, why do they dress and drive better cars than I or you do?
That made absolutely no sense. George W. Bush lied to us and got our country into a huge mess, so what makes you think that he has the ability or the brains to get us out of it???
Anyway, the people that are making these anti-Moore movies are making them because they don't want to face reality. Bush lied, he's going to lose this election, and the Republicans are scared.
Now there is a banner at the bottom that links to a poll that asks whether you think Fahrenheit 911 was fact or fiction.