I can't believe the Spanish people have "acted" so cowardly.

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by amberashby, Mar 15, 2004.

  1. amberashby macrumors 6502

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    #1
    Notice that I am saying "acted", for one cowardly act does not make a "coward". I am however disturbed at how al Qaida has achieved a victory against the Spanish people. Not in the murderous, inhumane Madrid train bombing, but the reaction of the Spanish people in turning their support towards a political party that will have a "hands off" approach to terrorism. Exactly what al Qaida was hoping for.

    Why don't they "get it"?
     
  2. javabear90 macrumors 6502a

    javabear90

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    #2
    I agree, also they are pulling out of Iraq -- another thing that al quda wanted. tsk tsk tsk
     
  3. wordmunger macrumors 603

    wordmunger

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    #3
    I agree, it looks bad. However, the government didn't look too good either by trying to pin the March 11 attacks on ETA. They made the noose that hung them.
     
  4. virividox macrumors 601

    virividox

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    #4
    remember 90% of the spanish people did not want to get involved with iraq to begin with and the previous PM screwed them over and went along with the coalition

    they have the right to chose a leader who will voice their opinions, i dont think its a cowardly act, they just want a leader who will represent them
     
  5. Mark James macrumors regular

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    #5
    An Eta atrocity better suited the purposes of the People's Party, so that's what the PP declared it to be. Once it became apparent that there was at least a strong possibility that the bombs were the work of Muslim groups, the Spanish electorate responded with justifiable anger to the outgoing government's self-serving lies and voted them out.

    A large majority of the Spanish people were opposed to Spain's complicity in the United States' invasion of Iraq. That's not cowardice. There might be a degree of 'let's not draw atttention to ourselves' there, but the overriding Spanish (and pan-European) response was that a US invasion of Iraq a) had *nothing* to do with the war on terror, b) would create more terrorists than it destroyed, and b) was both illegal and immoral.

    That said, it's unfortunate that the incoming Socialists have so quickly committed to withdrawing Spanish troops. 'We' have made this mess, and 'we' are obliged to try and sort it out rather than running away from the problems.
     
  6. amberashby thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #6
    You made some good points, but if Osama's henchmen try and pull something like this in the US prior to our election it will have the opposite effect. Bush will beat the socialist party in a landslide (just joking. no flames please). But seriously, I believe Bush would win handily if there would be another terror attack in the US.
     
  7. miloblithe macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

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    #7
    Why do you think that Bush would win if there was another attack in the U.S.? Wouldn't that prove he's doing a poor job _protecting_ us?
     
  8. SiliconAddict macrumors 603

    SiliconAddict

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    #8
    Well first off this should be in the Political / War discussion section.

    Beyond that.

    They do get it. It's just you and some American's ideas that they have to Bush and Dick with every country on the planet that doesn't "get" it.

    No one ever asked the question after 9/11. Why has al Qaida been fighting a war against the US? This anti-freedom crap that Bushies spew forth is just that. Crap. The US pushes everyone in the world around. They take sides in conflicts that we shouldn't be Bush and Dicking with. Well for once someone pushed back beyond simple stamping of feet, gnashing of teeth, and their diplomats screeching like apes.
    The thing is its one thing to target the leaders of a country or the military. It’s another when you target innocent civilians but I guess it all works out in the end because how many civilians did the US kill in the war/s in Afghanistan and Iraq? I can guarantee that, that "collateral damage" accounted to way more the 3,000 people. (Ahh silly me I forgot. 10 foreigners equal 1 American in terms of value.) All those people wanted to do was go about their lives. Guess they can't do that anymore. And will anyone in the US be held accountable for those deaths? Nope because we have a manifest destiny to Bush and Dick with any country we want on this planet.
    Lets face it. The only option against the US anymore is not direct conflict. No country other then possibly China and maybe Russia (Though Russia isn't what it use to be in terms of military power.) are the only countries that can take on the US in a full-blown war. Either that or if they entire world grew a set and took on the US as one collective force. Wow that would be a sight. The collective world saying enough of America's BS.

    Look. After 9/11 if you had given me a gun and set me in front of an al Qaida operative I would have blow his damn head off and gone on to watch an episode of the Simpson's and laughed my head off without thinking twice about it. Thou shalt not kill my ass. I would have killed the bastard. Maybe even line a few of them up in a row and avoid wasting bullets. Once I cooled down I did what many seem incapable of doing. THINKING. Trying to understand why. Do I side with al Qaida? Hell no. Their acts deserve total extermination. But I can at least understand the hatred and reasoning.
    If we want to end terrorism the first step is to step back from the world stage and stop Bush and Dicking with other countries. Until that happens there will always be a person willing to give their life to **** over the US no matter how many centurions..oops sorry wrong empire..soldiers you send around the world. Our very actions are what causes the propagation of terrorism.
     
  9. SiliconAddict macrumors 603

    SiliconAddict

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    #9
    Wouldn't matter. It would validate all the crap he has put us and the world through the last few years.

    I had another thought the other day, What if there was a massive strike in Iraq 2 days before election which resulted in several hundred soldiers dead? That could be enough to sway a large number of voters away from Bush.

    The thing is I doubt any resistance in Iraq knows the ins and outs of the American political system well enough to realize this.
     
  10. Mark James macrumors regular

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    #10
    I think you're right. The US electorate believes that a hawkish government and a military response can eradicate terrorism, whereas European electorates believe that military intervention will just exacerbate the problem. It's a very fundamental difference between Old World and New World, and I suspect it boils down to the fact that religious beliefs and attitudes are still a force in the US. An eye for an eye, etc...
     
  11. jxyama macrumors 68040

    jxyama

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    #11
    i presume that the o.p. is an american...

    did you ever stop to think "what did we (americans) do to them (anti-american terrorists) that would instill so much hatred?" 9/11 didn't happen in a void. we are at least partially responsible for instilling that hatred to begin with.

    if there's another attack on america, it has to do with both american failure on intelligence AND contunued ignorance of the united states to even try to understand that we are a part of the problem.

    it's not "us against them" and how spain is "moving away from us."
     
  12. wordmunger macrumors 603

    wordmunger

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    #12
    In the first place, I think it's important to separate Afghanistan from Iraq. I tend agree with your sentiments about Iraq, but in Afghanistan, I disagree. The U.S. has every right to attack a country that harbors terrorists who murder its citizens. Every effort was made to curtail civilian deaths, but mistakes happen, people are in the wrong place at the wrong time. Unfortunately they live in a country that was controlled by religious zealots who resorted to cowardly murder to achieve their goals. Live in a place like that, and you're likely to get involved in a war. I feel bad for the people who died or lost family members, but I also feel bad for those who lost their lives or loved ones in the World Trade Center. Yeah, war sucks, but sometimes a war happens for the right reasons, and Afghanistan was one of those wars.
     
  13. Mark James macrumors regular

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    #13
    Hmmmm. Sounds vaguely familiar.
     
  14. AhmedFaisal Guest

    #14
    *blink* *blink* *rubs eyes* *looks* *rubs eyes again*

    Is it possible??? You are a US citizen? I guess there is still hope. You hit the nail on the proverbial head.
    Now, while all that is right, what do we do about it? I am glad that goddamned liar Aznar got the response from the voters he deserved, however I hope the new government is smart enough to do whatever they do in a way that it doesn't encourage Al Kaida to think blowing **** up gets them what they want. I believe firmly however that Zapatero is realist enough not to make that mistake. He will hopefully agree to the European Constitution unlike Aznar who was the biggest obstacle to its ratification. He will hopefully also take a more diplomatic stance on military issues allowing the European Community to finally get its act together and act as one entity (again Aznar was the biggest obstacle to that). He will not just simply withdraw from Iraq but add to the pressure on the US to do a better job in Iraq and that Cheney stops feeding his buddies with contracts.
    On the "rest of Europe" side I hope this brings about the realization that we are a target and that we have to handle certain issues differently. Meaning on one hand we have to embrace those of Muslim faith among our citizens that are law abiding, tolerant and moderate while we have to drastically crack down and deport those who spread fundamentalist believes and hatred. It is absurd that a student at the University of Colone can run a website on a University Server that preaches Djihad and death to the infidels without getting in trouble and living his life there on german taxpayers money. At the same time we need to take a close look at how companies that we allow to sell products in our market conduct themselves in other countries. It is not acceptable that companies like Shell and Exxon financially support dictators and terrorists in Africa to get cheap access to their natural resources or topple other governments to bring those to power they hope will return the favor.
    Cheers,

    Ahmed
     
  15. amberashby thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #15
    Why do you insist on justifying terrorist acts? There is no justification. There is no "what makes them do this"? They are CRAZY, INSANE, and they don't think rationally. They commit suicide while killing thousands of innocent people and you think you can deal with them in a rational way? The only solution is to exterminate them one by one. No one will ever convince me otherwise.
     
  16. AhmedFaisal Guest

    #16
    The irony is that the Taliban are a US creation in the first place, same as good old Osama. Both were trained along with other Mujaheddin in the war against the Soviets in Afghanistan. When the Mujaheddin started fighting against eachother after the Russians were driven out, the US then supported the Taliban financially and strategically because they hoped after Afghanistan was under their control they could get easy access to the Oil and Gas reserves at the Caspian sea. This also goes for fundamentalist movements and uprisings in other former Soviet countries in the Caucasus and around the Caspian sea. The quote applies "The Ghosts I summoned, I can not control"
    Cheers,

    Ahmed
     
  17. dermeister macrumors 6502

    dermeister

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    #17
    *Claps*

    I'm glad not everybody here is absorbed in some stupid idealist dream-world, and spewing crap like "we should take steps to understand alqaida"...

    As for spain... They'll get what they deserve. The new socialist government will destroy them just as the left destroyed france... I'm not going to explain this because its really a whole other issue, but people that know what I mean will certainly be able to appreciate the value of the comment.
     
  18. AhmedFaisal Guest

    #18
    Why do you insist on not seeing reason?

    Because while you kill one terrorist another 10 will be recruited around the corner. Unless you fix the fundamental problems that cause people to become so desperate that they will follow people like Osama bin Laden or whoever will succeed him (and someone always will!) you will not win the war on terror. Its not about dealing with those who are terrorists already. They are lost, but it is about dealing with those that people like bin Laden draw their followers from. Unless you are able to win those for your cause, terror will not go away. And you can win them only if you give them a perspective other than misery and poverty. This applies for Isreal/Palestina, this applies for all those countries where the West installed and supported criminal governments. Those are the breeding grounds for the terror that we experience now!
    Cheers,

    Ahmed
     
  19. amberashby thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #19
    I agree that something needs to be done to keep more terrorist from being recruited. Education and public relations needs to be implemented along with extermination. Teach the young people that terrorism is not the answer and NEVER EVER let terrorist intimidate you like they did to Spain. This only makes them stronger.

    Peace.....

    P.S. I love my Mac.
     
  20. AhmedFaisal Guest

    #20
    Certainly. Then ask George and Dick why they don't do anything about that? So far all they have done is blow **** up. Nationbuilding in Afghanistan is done by Germany and other countries, the US don't contribute **** to that! Same in Iraq. All Dick and his Cronies do is giving contracts to their crooked buddies (Halliburton etc.) but NOTHING is done about stabilizing the situation there. The true cowards are in Washington, not in Madrid, Berlin or Paris.
    Cheers,

    Ahmed
     
  21. toontra macrumors 6502

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    #21
    I am equally shocked at this thread. Does anyone seriously think the Spanish people were bombed into submission by terrorists? Is that what you guys are saying? If so, I suggest you open your minds and stop believing everything you read in the right-wing US press.

    I suggest the reasons the vote moved towards the socialist opposition after the bombing were:

    1) They didn't appreciate being misled about the likely culprits for the bombing.

    2) They realised for all Aznar's talk about fighting terrorism, he'd squandered resources in fighting a pointless war in Iraq (against 90% views of the population) instead of concentrating on "homeland security".

    To imply that the Spanish are cowards, as this thread does, is shamefull!
     
  22. Stelliform macrumors 68000

    Stelliform

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    #22
    According to CNN, the the polls showed that they vote was going to go the other way the day before the attack. Only after the attack did the vote swing to the opposition. It does appear that the election was decided by the attack.
     
  23. amberashby thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #23
    I never called them cowards, and I do believe that the points you made were also a part of the reason for voting for the Socialist. However, I still think the main reason was intimidation. I've seen quite a few quotes from Spanish voters confirming this. This may not be how a majority of the population thinks, but I do see it as a popular view there.

    P.S. Since when is the US press "right-winged"?
     
  24. Mark James macrumors regular

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    #24
    The Peoples Party *was* on course for re-election, because the invasion of Iraq was not the biggest issue. I know nothing of the domestic mundanities of taxation and benefits but there were questions of Spain's role within the EU and the degree of autonomy enjoyed by Spain's regions. The regional issue was perhaps the most 'passionate', which is why the PP immediately tried to scapegoat Eta.

    Had the PP not blamed Eta, and subsequently been 'found out', then they would almost certainly have remained in power. So yes, the election *was* decided by the attack, or more accurately by the PP's ill-judged response to the attack.
     
  25. toontra macrumors 6502

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    #25
    Please give me links to the sources of these quotes and I'll tell you why I think the majority of the US media is right-wing.
     

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