I don't want to go to jail-or the dubious legality of the download :(

Discussion in 'Community' started by KooBrewoP, May 26, 2004.

  1. KooBrewoP macrumors regular

    KooBrewoP

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    #1
    Ok slightly melodramatic but my concerns are legitimate. I, as a matter of course download free music / films and backup dvd's. I happen to believe that the music /film industry makes more profit than they need to by charging an unrealistic mark up price. My sympathy for the few fat-cats at the top fell even further with mounting aggression shown towards their own customers in relation to sharing/downloading. Apparently us downloading things is killing off new bands, but if a band is really worth listening to, not just backed by a big label that tells us it is, then free downloads will mean more people will hear it, and their fan base will grow faster than it could have, with solid state mediums, allowing them to make more than enough cash through live shows / merchandise etc.

    So my question is, how do they find out if you have downloaded "illegal" music, and how can you stop them? Is it just through spywere? (God dont get me started on spywear : ) and can they do things like track torrents? and do we have any legal rights? (i live in the UK, but this stuff pretty much applies everywhere now) :p
     
  2. robbieduncan Moderator emeritus

    robbieduncan

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    #2
    First of all you do not have a right to download copyrighted works in the UK. We also do not appear to have a doctrine of fair use (unlike the US) so copying a DVD or CD, even as a backup, is illegal! No-one will sue you for making a single copy of a DVD or a CD that you already own for your own personal use though.

    In terms of on-line piracy they industries have a number of ways of tracking you, all of which come down to your IP address in the end. Spyware is not the issue here (sorry). Yes they can track the IP address of downloaders on P2P networks. At the moment most of the people being sued tend to be mass providers of the works, not the downloaders but this could change.
     
  3. jxyama macrumors 68040

    jxyama

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    #3
    i think you get targeted if you offer files for others to download. illegal distribution is currently what music industries are targeting, not illegal downloading.

    so if you are just free loading and not offering anything for others, you are "safe." (which is probably the aim of the record labels anyway - if everyone became free loader, then there'll be nothing to download..?)

    that said, no matter what reasons you give it, you are infringing on copyrights by downloading copyrighted music for free. and copyright infringement is illegal in most countries, certainly in the UK. if you aren't willing to pay the price, then don't do the crime. simple as that.
     
  4. caveman_uk Guest

    caveman_uk

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    #4
    Similarly, I believe putting music you own on CD onto an ipod is technically illegal in the UK because of the lack of fair use provisions.
     
  5. Abstract macrumors Penryn

    Abstract

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    #5
    In Canada, you can download music "illegally", as they say. Hell, its legal here (erm....in Canada) because I think technically, there's a particular "music piracy" tax that's already included in the price of a CD. This tax exists because the RIAA tried to sue because people were putting their music onto blank audio cassette tapes and handing them out to friends, selling them, whatever. Its not like bootlegging didn't exist before. Its just that the media didn't sensationalize it with words like "music piracy" and so forth. What the hell is a music pirate! :p Anyway, if there's a tax that already covers the cost of downloading music for free, then we should be able to download music, right? Well, we can in Canadia, baby! :cool:

    Canada = The only truly free country.
     
  6. voicegy macrumors 65816

    voicegy

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    #6
    Do you also sneak into movie theaters and go to record stores and pinch cd's and DVD's and walk out with them under your coat to further your cause against unrealistic mark up prices? What else in the marketplace could we identify as being unrealistically priced that we could justify in our minds for pinching for free? How about automobiles? Why not an Apple computer - those things are marked up inappropriately, surely.

    Ah, but those would take some actual EFFORT and the risk of being caught is higher, with swift punishment. Much easier to click a few buttons in ones' own home to justify theft.

    But I forgot - this action ISN'T "theft." You're just downloading "free" music and movies. So, as you stated, if they're "free" in the first place, then there's no legality issues.

    Carry on.
     
  7. radhak macrumors regular

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    #7
    yeah, don't : James Bond is always very bland with his attire; his girl friend halle berry is different, of course... :D
     
  8. KooBrewoP thread starter macrumors regular

    KooBrewoP

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    #8
    No . Their is a big difference from a physical item and a product that can essentially be broken down in to information. And i think that a market driven society is wrong in any case, but in and through the internet i saw a new medium in which information was transmitted freely, because that is what modern day society is built on - information, and the recent information explosion, started off by improved communications has allowed humanity to do more over a shorter period than at any time in our history, never have we made so many discoveries so quickly, the internet being in my opinion one of the best - an unbiased totally open forum for potentially everyone alive - with the potential to impart understanding to people in ways that have never been possible. Now we come to the few guys who were going along making a good profit on e.g. music sales, when a new medium is discovered and used, there only thought is how, it now seems they have less money, and they quickly all look for someone to blame, and some way to get back their profit and perhaps even make more. They are the ones forcing laws through but not one of them is looking beyond the short term profit it means for them.

    And we can also talk about how we live in a world driven by business, but if our societies cant remain dynamic and integrate in to the computer age, rather than trying to restrict it because a few of them are loosing out, then all business will eventually suffer, as the majorities will and the fews power collide.

    And no i never pinched cd.'s or dvd's - though when ii was 10 i did once steal a mars bar, i still wake up screaming......
     
  9. blue&whiteman macrumors 65816

    blue&whiteman

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    #9
    exactly right. the riaa is only going after people that share over 800 songs.
     
  10. James L macrumors 6502a

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    #10

    the problem is this new medium you are describing not only makes it easy to share information, but copyrighted artists works. The bottom line, however you rationalize is, is that you are a thief.

    Downloading music illegally is no different than walking into a gallery and stealing a painting. Why do you think iTunes is such a good thing? Why do you think there are over 70 million songs sold? Why do you think the big 5 record companies got on board? Musicians are artists, and artists deserve to be paid for their work. You described it as not having sympathy for the fat cats at the top, but you are also stealing money from the minimum wage dude who works the factory line, the dude who works in shipping, etc. As fewer and fewer CD's cell, more and more people get laid off. You are contributing to it.

    I am going to get off my soapbox now, as I didn't want my post to turn into a lecture or a rant. I could care less if you steal music from the artist, but please don't wrap it in tails of "fat cats", etc. Just do it if you want and be honest about it. The artist worked hard to create the product. If you like it, pay for it. If you want to steal it, steal it. Just be honest about it.

    Cheers,

    James
     
  11. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

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    #11

    Mind sharing your numbers/findings with us that led to this belief?


    Lethal
     
  12. Krizoitz macrumors 6502a

    Krizoitz

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    #12
    First off you are a thief. Plain and simple. No matter how you try and justify it what you are doing isn't some sort of noble Robin Hood-esque crusade against the rich.

    Let me make this perfectly clear. You have absolutely NO right to that music/video that you are stealing. None. You are not entitled to it in any way shape or form. And you certainly don't NEED it. Instead you want it. And you want it without paying for it.

    Do record labels charge alot of money for CD's? Probably. Do they make a lot of profit off of them? Most likely. But guess what, its their product. They own it. They can do whatever they want with it. If you think its too expensive than you don't buy it. If you want it enough then you do buy it. Frankly it sickens me the way people try to justify this blatant theft as some sort of noble crusade against "the man". Gimme a break.

    It doesn't matter whether its a physical product or not, it is not yours. And its not like they promised you something (we'll sell you this CD for $5) and then went behind your back and charged you more. That would be wrong. But you know going into it how much it costs. So you either decide its worth it or you don't.

    Its so sad how this generation has this attitude like they are entightled to all these things. In another thread someone was complaining about how an upcoming tax-break in their state was limited to products under $2000. They actually complained! Rather than appreciate the opportunity to get something for less then normal they wanted more. Its like someone giving you a free cookie and you complaining that they didn't bake you a cake.

    Face it, you are a thief, no matter how you try and justify it thats what you are. It used to be that if you wanted something and couldn't afford it you either lived without it, or :eek: earned the money to buy it! Why don't you try that, then you won't have to worry about getting arrested. The best way to avoid getting arrested is to NOT BREAK THE LAW.
     
  13. KooBrewoP thread starter macrumors regular

    KooBrewoP

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    #13
    I am not saying that no one deserves to get payed but why exactly are the artists earning so much more than the people who pack the records?

    I am not trying to preach either its just something that i feel strongly about, i apologize if it sounds like I'm just shouting at people - thats not my intention. :D
     
  14. KooBrewoP thread starter macrumors regular

    KooBrewoP

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    #14
    But don't you feel hemmed in by the prefabricated requirements of listening to a sound? Or should we all just lie down every time someone else wants to make money? The issue in not whether i should pay for it but whether they should sell it

    (ps stop getting so angry at meeee :( )
     
  15. James L macrumors 6502a

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    #15
    Because the artist wrote the song... the painter painted the painting, the sculpture made the statue, etc.

    What creative input did the packing dude have? None? How much skill does his job require? Little.

    Artists create, people who like the creation purchase. It has been this way for centuries in our society. It is not for you to decide whether it is right or wrong.

    Here is the amount of strength you as a consumer have: If you like the product and want it, you BUY it. If you don't like the product, or the process of creation and distribution, you DON'T buy it. But, to steal it and then wrap it up in some type of bullsh*t tale about "the man" and "the fat cats" is bunk.

    Incidently, it is not always who you think that gets the money. Many people don't realize that the songwriter gets the lions share of the royalties. For example, if Bon Jovi recorded a song written by Desmond Child, it is Desmond who really cleans up. Fair enough, the creator of the art deserves the lions share of the rewards from it.
     
  16. James L macrumors 6502a

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    #16

    Maybe that is where you are misguided... it is not a sound, and yes, they should sell it.

    A song is a creation, a product, an item (though not physical). It is not owned by "everyone", it is owned by its creator. Why do you think people are sued all the time, successfully, for copyright infringement?

    If you can make those same sounds, then make them. If it requires an artist to create those sounds in a fashion that you like (a song), then that artist deserves reward for it.

    Just because you can't hold it in your hand doesn't mean that it is a "free" product that "everyone" has the right to you.

    You want it, you pay the artist for it... as well as all the other people required to get it from the artists head into a package you can use.

    Sorry, this argument has appeared on boards before and I don't think you have a chance of winning it... too many honest people online!

    Cheers,

    James
     
  17. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

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    #17

    For the same reason that anyone with a skill and/or unique ability will be able to make more money than someone that has no unique skills or abilities. How many people can pack CDs into a box? How many people can create music like Hendrix? How many people can work the check out counter at the local grocery store? How many people can direct like Spielberg?

    And relatively few artists earn the millions that people assume every artist makes. My numbers are a few years old, but of the ~85,000 members of SAG (the screen actors guild) about 1.5% of them make a livable annual income from acting. I'm assuming the numbers are about the same for bands that get signed to a major label. For every Britney there are a hundred bands that will never make enough money to repay the advance they got from the label. That's why pop stars and summer blockbusters are pushed so hard. The 1 band or movie that actually generates a profit has to cover the cost of the other 8 or 9 that tanked.


    Lethal
     
  18. voicegy macrumors 65816

    voicegy

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    #18
    So the Internet was created to express the freedom of theft?

    The only thing that made sense to me there was your story regarding stealing a Mars bar when you were 10. I can relate to that, and to the horrible feeling afterwards. Please learn from that and apply it throughout your life.
     
  19. Abstract macrumors Penryn

    Abstract

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    #19
    The music industry has been robbing us for years. What do you do about that? Nothing, but you turned a blind eye and defend them, nonetheless. No, I don't have to buy anything if I think its too expensive, but since its basically a monopoly, nobody really has a choice, do they? This is what happens when one group is given total control.....people are given no choice even when we're told that we have an infinite number of choices.

    I read that over 90 some-odd percentage of blank Cd's go towards burning music, and less than 10% goes towards backing up data. Why Sony makes so many CD-Burners and blank CD's, and then complains about bootlegging music, is beyond me. Why include the software needed to burn audio music CD's if they're so afraid of bootlegging?
     
  20. Krizoitz macrumors 6502a

    Krizoitz

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    #20
    Robbing us? Have they forcibly been taking our money from us? NO! They have been producing a product and we have been buying it. You know exactly what you are getting when you buy a CD or movie. Its YOUR choice. It really sickens me how much the idea of personal responsibility has dissapeared in todays society. Its turned into a constant whine of justifications and blame. "I'm fat...it must be McDonald's fault!" Give me a BREAK.
     
  21. Krizoitz macrumors 6502a

    Krizoitz

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    #21
    Its not just a sound any more than a book is just marks on a page. It is a creation. If you think its worth listening to you buy it. If not you don't. As far as I'm concerned as long as the product isn't poisinous or something they should sell whatever they want to sell. If people want to buy it thats their choice.
     
  22. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

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    #22

    Please point out which company has a monopoly on music. Also, if you don't mind, could you share your data/research w/us that has led you to the conclusion that "the music industry has been robbing us for years."

    Just because most CD blanks are used for music doesn't mean that that many are used for pirated music. I burn lots of mix CDs that are composed of CDs that I own.


    Lethal
     
  23. ChrisFromCanada macrumors 65816

    ChrisFromCanada

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    #23
    Canada's Laws

    The funniest part about that tax is that NONE of the money went to the recording industry or the artists! And the way the current law works depends completely on the way you look at it. The law is if you make a copy of a cd and give it to your friend that is illegal but on the other hand it is legal for your friend to bring their CD over to your house and copy it there for yourself and they bring the origional home. It is totally messed up but when it comes to P2P or bittorrent sharing which way would you look at? Is your friend making a copy for you or are you simply making a copy of your friends music for yourself? That is where the debate is at!

    Ahh Canada.....some of the most screwed up laws in the world.
     
  24. QCassidy352 macrumors G3

    QCassidy352

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    #24
    The reason I object to calling p2p sharing "theft" is that when you steal a physical item, someone loses something tangible. When you download an mp3 or a movie, nothing tangible is gone. Theft has two key elements: One, that a person obtains something for free, and Two, that another person loses something without compensation. p2p sharing can, but does not necessarily, involve both of these elements.

    The only material loss from p2p is a loss of revenue because the person who downloaded the item might have bought it. But the key word there is "might." I am willing to accept that p2p sharing is theft *if and only if* the person downloading would have paid for the item had it not been available for download.

    Now, this cannot constitute a legal defense, because you are the only person who can *honestly* know what you would or would not have bought. But, if I really know, being totally honest with myself, that I would never have bought a song, then there is no harm in downloading it, and it is not theft because no one is being deprived of anything that they otherwise would have had.

    Now, you might say, "but that doesn't really happen. If you download it, that means you want it, which means you would have paid for it." Maybe, but not necessarily. There are lots of things that people do that are free, that you would not do if you had to pay.

    Many people have tried to convince me that I am wrong, unsuccessfully. I'm sure some of you would like to try. :)
     
  25. James L macrumors 6502a

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    #25

    Interesting.. i don't agree with you, but well thought out. I wonder, if your theory is true, how people can be charged with theft of intellectual property then...If person A steals intellectual property from person B, person B hasn't necessarily lost anything, while person A has gained.

    ...thoughts?
     

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