If NOT Dreamweaver... then WHAT???

Discussion in 'Mac Apps and Mac App Store' started by iriejedi, Nov 19, 2004.

  1. iriejedi macrumors 6502a

    iriejedi

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2000
    Location:
    Nor Cal
    #1
    Hi everyone - :confused:

    I'd really like some opinions on Dreamweaver 'like' software. I have Dreamweave MX (v6.1) and was considering using my Edu discount for v7 (MX 2004) - but I hear on the threads from time to time how this is not a great option; that it is slow and all the other yadda yadda yadda's. in my "SELF-taught" state of skill, with enought knowledge to do real basic stuff, links inside pictures and image changes when a mouse is rolled over and basic tutorial stuff - I thought Dreamweaver was pretty slick. But I have not used anything else to make a genuine comparison.

    So Since most major Apps (Go Live, etc...) have a simialr Edu discount - what is considered to be powerful and user friendly and worth the purchase price. What would you buy to go from beginner to a more intermediate level of skill?

    Thank you for your opinions. :D

    Iriejedi
     
  2. Steven1621 macrumors 6502a

    Steven1621

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2003
    Location:
    Connecticut
    #2
    Adobe GoLive is a great program. I tend to prefer Dreamweaver for my work. Just out of habit, perhaps. I'm not sure of the levels of your abilty, but those programs can be learned easily if you take the time. If you want easy webdesign, MS FrontPage for Windows is you best bet. They make it painless with all the templates and such. I say go with Dreamweaver or FrontPage, though.
     
  3. Thirteenva macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2002
    #3
    If you have Dreamweaver MX and only a basic skill level, why do you need to upgrade? DW MX was a pretty good product (in some ways better than DW MX '04) so just stick with that. Spend the money on something else. I don't think you need to upgrade to MX '04 or move to GoLive.
     
  4. kgarner macrumors 68000

    kgarner

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2004
    Location:
    Utah
    #4
    Don't use Frontpage. It will give you the worst code of any WYSIWYG editor many times only working with Internet Explorer. If you must use WYSIWYG then go with Go Live or Dreamweaver. Personally, I reccomend investing in some books (see below) and a text editor (I use SubEthaEdit because its free). That way you can really understand what is going on when you create your site. And it really doesn't take too long to learn how to do this stuff.

    HTML for the World Wide Web with XHTML and CSS
    Designing with Web Standards
    Eric Meyer on CSS

    Edit: NOt sure what's up with those links, but the books do show up on the page it takes you to. Just look under the the Agent Orange video thing and they are listed there.
     
  5. kettle macrumors 65816

    kettle

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    May 12, 2002
    Location:
    England, Great Britain (Airstrip One)
    #5
  6. nelwd macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2004
    #6
    Freeway

    Hi

    I use Freeway. It is easy to use and comes with some good templates. I have managed to get children as young as 7 to create their own basic site using it. (I am a primary school teacher) The online tutorials are very through, and it will allow you to create very advanced sites as well if you want to.

    http://www.softpress.com/en

    The link will take you to their site, where you can download a working trial, which works for 30 days.
     
  7. Sammie macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2004
    Location:
    Peawanuck, Ontario
    #7
    Here's the route I took and it helped me and now, I sleep better!

    Learn Html, than, XTHML, which only means extension, and the only difference is u close all the codes. Than learn CSS. Once u read code and to which is easy, u will learn to read and learn why dreamweaver and the other programs do what they are supposed to do. Cause wysiwyg can sometimes mean "what you see isnt what you get" with all editing programs in everyday applications and work.

    Remember, HTML is now considered structure, CSS is styling and making the pages look cool n neat which html cannot do. Javascript is for those neat rollovers when u put ur mouse over. If u learn html and coding, you can make a style sheet and make changes to all pages, lets say 1,000 for arguments sake in one second. If u don't...well, it will take u weeks to make changes to content for 1,000 pages. In other words your skills are limited and thats the diff between from those who make web pages and professionals. Reading code is easy, but u must also know photoshop to make great sites. HOPE THAT HELPS :D
     
  8. DanTekGeek macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2004
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    #8
    im also learning web programming, and the most visual program i use is simply a text editor with a preview. if you are going to learn to make good code, and thus, good websites, you have to do it on your own. i tried dreamweaver, and i really didnt like how little control i had. just a suggestion.
     
  9. Darwin macrumors 65816

    Darwin

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2003
    Location:
    round the corner
    #9
    Im proberly going to go with Freeway Express, i'm not planning at becoming a pro but I need something to use for simple projects

    I thought about DW but I think I'll stick with purchasing Freeway
     
  10. Yotabyte macrumors member

    Yotabyte

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2004
    Location:
    Perth, Australia.
    #10
    Photoshop and a text editor p4wnes dreamweaver all the time. (I do web design on a windows PC, so I am not using Mac Wear. I use Editplus and Photoshop, Editplus ownes all)

    p.s. I included photoshop as I use it actively in the web DESIGN process, not only for image design.
     
  11. Thirteenva macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2002
    #11
    Little control??? This is a pretty ignorant statement. You have AT LEAST the same amount of control with DW as you do with a text editor, but in reality you have more control.

    I have been using dreamweaver for 5 years. It is extremely powerful and offers MORE control. Does your text editor show you gui changes right below where you're writing code like DW does in split view? Does you're text editor have code completion and syntax coloring. Can you save code snippets for easy reuse? Can you create reusable objects that are easily and seamlessly integrated on each page that uses them? Do all pages containing this control get updated at once when you need to make a change to it? Can you edit an image simply by right clicking and choosing to edit, then have it auto open in your editor of choice? How about live preview mode for dynamic pages? Integrated ftp? I can go on and on...

    I agree that hand coding is the way to go, but I LOVE that dreamweaver gives me time saving options for design and development...If you don't like DW to right code for you, I AGREE, and the great thing is that it only writes code for you if you tell it to. So saying that it takes control away is just plain IGNORANT.

    If you ever work in an actual development/design environment, you'll discover that having a tool that helps you is a necessity, especially if you plan to keep that job. NO employer will say "Well, he works slowly, but hell, at least he can say he codes it all by hand".

    Having the ability to hand code everything and actually doing it are two different things. You need the ability to hand code to get the job... you need to use tools that make things easier in order to keep that job.
     
  12. ravenvii macrumors 604

    ravenvii

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2004
    Location:
    Melenkurion Skyweir
    #12
    I'll vouch for the Zeldman book. I have it, and it helped me alot. Great book.
     
  13. iriejedi thread starter macrumors 6502a

    iriejedi

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2000
    Location:
    Nor Cal
    #13
    Thank you everyone!

    Wow - looks like I opened up a can of worms. I decided on Adobe's GoLive since I found the Academic version for $74 (vs $399 retail) - I considered the Freeway Program but it was twice as much and I'm already quite handy with Photoshop CS so I went for the Brand name. Plus, I know I have Dreamweave MX (6.1) to fall back on.

    Thank you for the replies.

    Iriejedi



     
  14. bousozoku Moderator emeritus

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2002
    Location:
    Gone but not forgotten.
    #14
    It's quite a can of worms. I've been using GoLive since version 4.0, the first Adobe version and I really didn't like it much then but it's come a long way. The one thing that always pushes me back to it is Macromedia's scattering of information. You may have to go 5 different places to set up one little thing. Once you're accustomed to the disorder, Dreamweaver is extremely capable.
     
  15. Thirteenva macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2002
    #15
    I just get tired of people saying "I only use a text editor" like they want a medal for it. We all learned with a text editor obviously since thats all that was available, it was free and your needs are basic in the beginning. I can't imagine coding our 700 page web application using a text editor only. Dreamweaver's library and cascading template option alone has saved me days worth of work.

    I often wonder if these people beat their chest and go hunting for their food because a real man would never buy meat off a shelf...

    If you want to enter the realm of web design and development, by all means learn to hand code, and when you upgrade your skills again, do it by hand coding (when i migrated to css positioning from table based design last year I did it all by hand). Don't rely on the tool to build things for you, rely on it to help you build things faster.

    HOWEVER, know how to use your tools because in a production job, time is money and the tool will make you more productive and your bosses happy.
     
  16. kettle macrumors 65816

    kettle

    Joined:
    May 12, 2002
    Location:
    England, Great Britain (Airstrip One)
    #16
    Despite wanting to agree with you about the fastest way to get a tasty steak meal, I would also point out that going out to hunt for your food and killing it with your own hands is the only way to make sure someone isn't selling you horse meat.

    In a horse meat scenario, all Dreamweaver will help you do is produce 700 pages of horse meat much quicker.

    So YES, if someone can bothered to learn HTML and CSS by hand, the DO deserve a medal, and with it they get to understand exactly why WYSIWYG coding is rarely a time saver. The WYSIWYG isn't the clever thing about Dreamweaver, like Thirteenva, I think it's large project abilities are what gives it wings.

    Just wrong. You have to do it the way Dreamweaver wants it or you have to re edit it. Keep your opinion though, I suppose (I know) people have completely different ideas about good design and good accessibility.
     
  17. rand() macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2004
    Location:
    Michigan
    #17
    Time to calm down a bit.

    There's *absolutely nothing* wrong with using Dreamweaver or GoLive (Frontmonopolypage I have a problem with). Nothing. The points you make are very good. But you need to not be a spaz, and realize that there are text editors that do several things you mention. (You also mention ignorance, try not to embody it.)

    For example - jEdit (which I have recently fallen in love with) has color syntax highlighting and code completion in practically every programming language known to man - not just HTML, CSS, Javascript, and PHP, but certainly including them. It also offers as many split views of multiple documents as you can handle, in whatever configuration you like.

    With a text editor, the workflow is a matter of choice, rather than a stuck-with-Macromedia/Adobe/Microshaft's-interface situation.

    As for controls that auto-update on every page, simply dividing your content from your interface does that by its very nature.

    Also, many 'features' you cite are as well or better managed simply with the windowing system of your OS rather than within one app. So, yes, I can right-click on an image and have it edit in the editor of my choice. I also can use Exposé to get to my 5 browsers quickly and make sure my code renders properly in all browsers. In Fluxbox, I can cruise windows in much the same way. Without touching the mouse. (A mouse has 1 button. A keyboard has ~104. Which can get more work done, and how much faster?)

    A good designer/programmer can get just as many useful and pretty pages written with a *good* text editor in just as little time. Often, they get even more done. It's simply a matter of workflow. For some, Dreamweaver's style hinders that flow, which is why they go text. For others, that text style is confusing, and Dreamweaver offers an all-in-one solution.

    But please, don't pretend that either way is vastly superior to the other.

    Thanks. Sorry for calling you a spaz. No hard feelings? :eek:

    -rand()
     
  18. Yvan256 macrumors 601

    Yvan256

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Location:
    Canada
    #18
    I second that.

    WYSIWYG for the Web is one of the worst thing ever.

    You do need a tool for graphics slicing/optimization though. A shame that Adobe doesn't sell ImageReady separately anymore.
     
  19. Yvan256 macrumors 601

    Yvan256

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Location:
    Canada
    #19
    Depends. If the WYSIWYG program still spits out websites that uses tables for the layout, then throw it into the trash.

    If your WYSIWYG program does allow you to use CSS for the layout, and the final ouput is W3C-compliant, then by all mean use it if you want.

    A clean CSS layout, content and style separation, lightweight pages and W3C compliant code is all that matter in the end.
     
  20. rand() macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2004
    Location:
    Michigan
    #20
    That's my problem with Frontpage :)
     
  21. Yvan256 macrumors 601

    Yvan256

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Location:
    Canada
    #21
    A lot of hand coders don't like WYSIWYG coders for one simple reason: most of the WYSIWYG coders just fire up their program, never learn HTML/XHTML nor CSS, and just let the program spit out pages for them.

    Hand coders *do* deserve a medal for coding by hand and knowing their stuff (I'll still put down hand coders who use tables for layout and similar crap, though). WYSIWYG coders who do learn HTML/XHTML and CSS *also* deserve a medal because they did learn how the medium works.

    In the end, WYSIWYG or not, it all depends on the quality of your work. The WYSIWYG and text editors are only tools and are a matter of choice/preference, you still have to learn your real medium, which is HTML/XHTML, CSS, image optimisation, code compliance with W3C, and of course checking that your valid code does work in the major browser (Netscape 4 is NOT a major browser, ditch that POS as soon as you can, put it in the same bag as Netscape 3, no CSS).
     
  22. Yvan256 macrumors 601

    Yvan256

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Location:
    Canada
    #22
    Frontpage = Microsoft = they wanna take over the world. :rolleyes:
     
  23. decksnap macrumors 68040

    decksnap

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2003
    #23
    I don't know if these 'hand coders' never used Dreamweaver or what, but it is a very useful program that does a LOT of things, whether you feel the need to hand code or not. Being able to manage my entire site(s),map it, structure it, FTP, check files in and out with others in my environment, view browser check errors, split view my code and my layout, find and replace sitewide, manage code snippits, and on, and on... It doesn't matter if you're using straight CSS or table layout, or even if you decide for some reason to hand code it, or even hand code it in a different program. Dreamweaver still has a lot of uses.
     
  24. 12ibookg4 macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2003
    #24
    I use HyperEdit It's a text editor but it colors the syntax and has a live updating preview pane of the web page. And the preview pane shows extactly what it will look like in Safari unlike Dreamweaver which often renders pages wrong when I edit complex templetes.
     
  25. bousozoku Moderator emeritus

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2002
    Location:
    Gone but not forgotten.
    #25
    I know that a lot of people like plain text editors and Bare Bones Edit is great for HTML, but there's no project management, which is why I use an application such as Dreamweaver or GoLive. If I have 50 pages and need to update one thing in all 50 pages, it's simple but not so with a text editor.

    Add to that the site map graphic and smart FTP, I know of no good reason to just use a plain text editor.
     

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