Iraqis shot for wearing shorts.

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by dogbone, May 28, 2006.

  1. dogbone macrumors 68020

    dogbone

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    #1
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5020804.stm

    After 150,000 or so Iraqi deaths and 2500 dead US soldiers I find it difficult to believe that democracy will survive in Iraq or can ever be established in any of the Arab ME countries for that matter. It has been stated by Islamic clerics ad nauseam that democracy (and women's rights) is not compatible with Islam. Why can't the West just accept it.
     
  2. MUCKYFINGERS macrumors 6502a

    MUCKYFINGERS

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    #2
    I just think it's ridiculous they were shot for wearing shorts.
     
  3. aquajet macrumors 68020

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    #3
    I'm curious: was anybody ever murdered under Saddam's rein simply because someone was wearing shorts? It's an honest question, really. I'd like to know.
     
  4. dogbone thread starter macrumors 68020

    dogbone

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    #4
    Probably not. Saddam was more of a secular dictator rather than a theocratic mullah. Women also were able to get educated, which is probably why the Iranians hated him.
     
  5. Queso macrumors G4

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    #5
    The Iranians hated Saddam because he invaded their country after the revolution in an attempt to annex it, and was fully supported by the West at the time.

    What's happening in Iraq is similar to what happened in Yugoslavia, so it's not down to them being muslim and certainly shouldn't be taken as why democracy will never work in the Middle East. For decades a strongman dictator keeps a lid on all religious and ethnic pressures within a country, then when he goes it all boils over and everyone starts on everyone else. In the UK we were predicting it before the invasion, but of course our idiot Government always thinks it knows best and went ahead anyway.

    Smug stupid idiot politicians have a lot to answer for. Bliar will go down in history as either incompetent or evil. Shame he doesn't just give it up and step down now.
     
  6. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #6
    Islam is ridiculous just as any religion, how can you install a democracy on top of Islam? With Islam goes extreme Islam so Killed for wearing shorts. Islam breeds these guys with its brainwashing of children. Brainwashing is brainwashing and all religions are guilty. Islam is one of the worlds worst and any country based on this crazy thinking isnt ever going to escape these nuts. Iraq is a waste of time & money as long as the kids are being taught this crap.
     
  7. blackfox macrumors 65816

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    #7
    Just to make sure you don't paint too broad with that brush - Iranian women have among the highest literacy rates of the Muslim World, at around 70%. This is compared to rates in the 40's for many Arab countries. Iranian women also make up a large % of University students (according to some figures over 50% of the student body.)

    This is not to say that Iranian women are free from prosecution and discrimination compared to the West - only that they fare much better than the average.
     
  8. dogbone thread starter macrumors 68020

    dogbone

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    #8
    I have my own theory on Islam and why it's appears to be a very fracked up religion. It goes something like this...

    Islam is not directly the problem but rather indirectly. The problem is that it appears that in Islamic Arabic countries Islam is used to oppress women to such an extent that the whole society becomes unbalanced. Just too much macho madness.

    Women seem to be oppressed sexually in the form of honor killings and also the black sacks they are forced to wear as well as a requirement to be accompanied everywhere. I know some women like to defend this wearing of black sacks by saying many like it. But if that were the case it wouldn't need to be written into law would it?

    Women are also oppress intellectually by having their opportunity to be educated, severely restricted. As well as politically. Already a couple of that very rare creature, a female politition in Iraq, have already been targetted.

    Women are a balancing and neutralising force in any society and when this is so brutally oppressed as it seems to be in Arabic Islamist countries it is only natural that everything is out of balance.

    That's my take anyway.
     
  9. yippy macrumors 68020

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    #9
    Well, I think the problem is not that democracy and Islam are incompatible, it is that full human rights and Islam are incompatible. Democracy by itself only give the people power over the government. If the people are all Islamic and then vote an Islamic leader and he can take away rights to enforce Islam without breaking the democracy. All that is required is the majority of people want it to be that way and keep voting him into power.

    It only fails when there is an extremely violent minority that don't like how the majority are ruling things. Then you get what we have in Iraq.
     
  10. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #10
    Human rights & Islam doesnt mix. Thats the whole problem then we want to put a democracy on top of that? all you end up with is a theocracy.
     
  11. blackfox macrumors 65816

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    #11
    Well, at least in theory, Islam and Democracy are not necessarily incompatible - if you have a proper separation of Church and State. You leave Islam primarily in the realm of the personal, and take a more Plural view in the Public square, while acknowleging the essential character of your society.

    Of course, that's working out so wonderfully for us, right now.

    Whether Democracy will work in places like Iraq (which I don't think it will), depends on other factors than Islam - such as literacy rates, middle classes, reasonable economic and political development and relative social unity. Many Arab states fare abysmally judged on these criteria, and ironically to this discussion, this is one of the causes for the growth and character of modern Islam.

    Poverty and ignorance are as much a source of the oppression of women, as Islam - hell, women have been treated like crap everywhere in the world. We burned women as witches, for christ's sake (ha).The West, through development, has progressed on treating people fairly - the ME is far behind on this barometer, because their societal development is far behind ours. To march in and demand that they go through what took us centuries to do, seems unrealistic and frankly, cruel and condescending.

    Islam is such a powerful force in the ME, at least in part, because it filled a vaccuum of order and focus in societies who found themselves in many cases given great wealth (through oil) and modernized rapidly and incompletely, with a political culture that couldn't keep pace. Islam fed the poor and gave meaning to the disenfranchised.

    Ultimately, however, Islam has a crap record in the Political Arena - perhaps because it deals with abstractions and ideals, I don't know. There is a hope, therefore, to build institutions and systems as a viable alternative to Islam, and to prejudice.

    It just won't be Democracy right away - hell, Syria wanted it, tried many times, and settled for a dictatorship - because the alternative was chaos. Freedom is a noble value and human right, but so is Order - and I think the latter comes first.

    If you are going around killing people for their clothing choices, it shows that you (a) are an idiot, (b) that you have too much time on your hands, (c) that you have lost sight of the forest for the trees, (d) that you see something to be gained by it - trying to instill order where there is none.

    Nobody did that under Hussein's Iraq - not because he was secular, but because he had the rule of law, and subsequent order - his order - by Iron fist.
     
  12. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #12
    True, thats why i see Bush's whole idea of Iraq a dismal failure. Iraq will fall back into a dictatorship or theocracy just giving some time. The Culture based on Islamic way of life doesnt allow tolerance in any form. Its not a live & let live religion, its more like live and think like we do or die. I feel pretty sad for Islamic woman all over this planet. What a mess to be born into.
     
  13. mactastic macrumors 68040

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    #13
    They can mix just fine as long as you keep the church and the state separate. If left unchecked by law, do you doubt that Christians would oppress women and do horrible things to them in the name of religion as well? You have only to look back a few hundred years to find a time when a woman could be sexually tortured, and outcast or even killed just by an accusation of witchcraft by an upstanding Christian.

    Prohibition? Book burnings? Public executions? It's all happened.
     
  14. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #14
    Hmmm...that sounds oddly familiar. Of course, you used 50 words - I, per usual, about 5000...
     
  15. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #15
    Its hard for me as semi-civilized person to think someone could be killed for clothing. Year 2006 and you aint playing tennis in shorts, let alone in a hot place like Iraq.:rolleyes: This is why we hear everyday of another one of our troops being killed. If we arent prepared to be in every mosque and school then we shouldnt even be in that country. Its starts with the kids and i hear little on that front. As long as the brainwashing goes on..........
     
  16. zap2 macrumors 604

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    #16
    Um it is more so then Chirstianity, as its agaisnt the Qur'an to force people to convert to Islam.. in Ancient History Muslims have let people "of the book"(Jews and Christains" live amoung them pretty peaceful, while in Europe place like France and Spain were killing all the Jews and Muslims they could find.

    Also lets not forget the Crusades, i'm not saying Islam is flawless, and i won't even touch which relgion is the best, but you can't go around attack other relgions before you look at all of them.

    We need to face this.. religion makes people do stupid stuff.
     
  17. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #17
    I agree 100% and they all want to tell others how to live.
     
  18. Ugg macrumors 68000

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    #18
    The Janissaries are proof that just because the Koran says something doesn't mean it's true. The Ottoman Empire was pretty ruthless and Christianity is increasingly under attack in Turkey as well as other countries.

    I'll wholeheartedly agree with the last bit.
     
  19. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #19
    I've seen a few people who ought to be punished for wearing shorts, but I think shooting them really is going too far.
     
  20. FFTT macrumors 68030

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  21. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #21
    Not so long ago, Islamic societies were scientifically and culturally among the best in the world. Just like any other religion, it can be a good thing or used for evil. Powerful men will always attempt to use religion to control people and followers will let them. I don't blame the religion. Especially considering the fact that it is based on peace. I blame those who pervert it.

    I'm sure there are plenty of Muslims upset by this, but many fear saying anything against it. You could say the same about Christianity. Or any religion for that matter.
     
  22. dogbone thread starter macrumors 68020

    dogbone

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    #22
    I'm not so sure about this. I am a great fan of the Hindu culture, not from a relgious pov but from the part that deals in knowledge, (everything from mathematics to the Self). When one understands the incredible store of knowledge that is still being translated from ancient writings on palm leaves, one can only imagine what was destroyed during the Muslim invasion of India when so many of their writings and temples were destroyed. In fact it is probably best not to imagine as it just upsets me.
     
  23. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #23
    Ah I started before you posted, then got sidetracked for a while; so I hadn't seen your post even though you had it up a good 45 minutes prior to mine.
     
  24. freeny macrumors 68020

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    #24
    Islam needs to be rewritten and seperated into two religions. One that completely denounces violence and terrorism, and the one that exists today. Apparently, like all religions, there is a bit of "creative interpritation" of the laws. Whacknuts see that they are allowed to kill and destroy for their cause and the more levelheaded see a more peacefull religion. The "wisemen" of Islam need to get together and put "As long as you dont hurt anyone" after every verse to clear things up. Unfortunately a good portion of the "wisemen" are whacknuts.

    The US or anybody else will never change the minds of these religious whacks. It has to happen internally within Islam itself.

    The worlds Islamic population who is in such an uproar about terrorism needs to rise up and fix this.
     
  25. blackfox macrumors 65816

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    #25
    Well, this charge can be leveled towards any expansionist Culture - which is to say, most of them out there.

    The destruction inherent in warfare and the subjugation of local culture with that of the occupier, is so obvious as to make specific cases of this argument pretty weak.

    The fact that some Muslims destroyed potentially valuable contributions by another Culture, says nothing about Muslim Cultures' contributions to the knowledge pool, or about other examples of their peacefulness and tolerance.

    I mean the West has among the crappiest record of blotting out local cultural mores and contributions, with their own - through colonialism - yet they also contributed greatly to the knowledge base, and have also been peaceful and tolerant at periods in history.
     

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