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Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by miloblithe, Sep 20, 2006.
Well, holy crap.
Heads up Abdelhadi,
I think Israel training the Kurds to defend themselves is a good thing. Sadam was a tyrant remember? He gassed the Kurds, he conducted war games in Kurdish cities, he freakin' murdered them in the streets! Let's give the Kurdish people the means to protect themselves from foreign threats. I would be happy if Israel was training them. This is what Iraq, and the Kurds need. They need to be able to handle terrorism on their own. One way to do it is have a well trained standing army, counter-terrorism force, and a police force. If they can defend themselves, we Americans can go home!
Yes, I'm in favor of splitting up Iraq and giving the Kurds a state of their own.
Obviously other arab countries would be upset. They don't like Israel in any way, shape or fashion.
What a shocker.
up until bush came along, all previous modern presidents were keenly aware that the balance of power in the M.E. must be maintained, and iraq and iran were a big part of that.
now that iraq is a failed state, no one should be surprised that many regional powers are asserting their influence in any of a number of ways.
way to go, bush.
I'll bet the Turks are thrilled.
Are you at all concerned about maintaining Turkey as an ally? Do you want to split up Turkey as well? Should Iran be split, giving its Azeri areas and population to Azerbaijan? Should Shiite Iraq lay claim to parts of Saudi.
And while this plan is in action, are you going to redraw Central Asia as well, just for fun. And while you're at it, you should probably just decided that the Kashmir belongs to Pakistan (or India), and force the other to accept. And you'll probably want to force China to give up Xinjiang while you're at it, and Tibet. And Russia as we know has no "legitimate" interests in the Caucasus. They should give up Chechnya, and probably all the neighboring regions for good measure. Oh, and return Karelia to Finland.
Where are you getting these from?
I'm simply saying Iraq would be better off splitting a portion of the county for a Kurdish state. I want to solve the Iraq problem, and one of the ways to do it would be splitting up the country, and giving the people the means to defend themselves. Therefore we Americans can freakin' leave!
Where did I advocate carving out land form Turkey?
Where did I advocate carving out land from Iran?
Where did I advocate making China give up Xinjiang?
You sir, need to cool your jets.
Yes, I'm in favor re-drawing the Iraqi part of Asia. Not China, Pakistan, India, Iran........................................................
So giving the Kurds their own portion of Iraq causes WWIII? How????????
Well, obviously I'm being a bit hyperbolic, but nowhere near as much as you seem to think. Do you understand why splitting Iraq into three countries (or however many) isn't a simple prospect? Do you understand that there are Kurds in Iran and Turkey, and both of those countries would strongly oppose the creation of a Kurdish state. Do you understand that there is a Shiite minority in Saudi, so the Saudis would strongly oppose the creation of a Shiite Iraqi sub-state for fear that their Shiite minority would want their own independence.
And national liberation movements have cascade potential. Imagine that you are a member of a persecuted minority. A neighboring persecuted minority has just been granted their own state. Wouldn't you increase agitation for yours?
Almost every single country in the middle east and central Asia and so on are not ethnically monolithic states.
Look at the history. There has been only two instances that I can think of where a state was divided relatively peacefully (Czechoslovakia and USSR). Generally, it's an occasion for violence. Right now Iraq is enough of a mess. Increase the stakes for Turkey, Iran, and Saudi, you'll only have more of a mess.
you REALLY believe yourself when you say Israel is training the Kurds so they can defend themselves?
Wouldn't giving the Kurds, Shiites, and Sunnis a state of their own quell the violence? I'm under the impression that it will.
The US is not responsible for Kurds, Shiites, and Sunnis in other countries. So if they act out, it aint our problem.
Do you understand the concept of alliances and diplomatic relations? Turkey. Saudi Arabia. Iran. Think harder.
So Israel trains them, and probably supplies them with proper weaponry and takes a step back, now it's more than acting out, now you have more instability in the region, but that's great for Israel, if Iraq is busy fighting itself in a civil war, to Israel, that's one less country to worry about, GREAT! 1 down 2 to go!
The US has no alliance with Iran. Some would argue having Iran split up would be for the better. Turkey and Saudi Arabia ought to be able to understand that ending the violence in Iraq is more important. If people within their nation are unhappy, then their respective governments ought to address the problems.
Again, if there was a Kurdish state created, and Kurds in Turkey suddenly want a state of their own, where is the US at fault? The Kurds have longed for a nation of their own, far beyond the 2003 invasion of Iraq. So now they have the chance to get a little piece of land to call their own.
Turkey and Saudi Arabia need to consider the needs of others. Restricting the creation of a Kurdish is selfish in my point of view.
EDIT: Jerhico, if Iraq can defend it's self, then we Americans can go home. If Iraq can succesfully handle terrorist uprisings then we Americans have done our job. If Israel is helping with the effort, I don't see a problem with it.
The US is allied with Turkey and Saudi Arabia.
Do you think that either of these countries is willing to give up an inch of territory without a fight? Most countries are "selfish" that way. Great Britain faught a war with Argentina over two big rocks and a bunch of penguins (hyperbole again, if you want to point out that the Falklands are a few square miles and home to about 2,000 people). The US certainly didn't react too kindly when a few southern states wanted to seceed.
And the problem, since you can't see it, with Israel "helping" is it will piss everyone off in the region. Pissed off people will create more rather than less violence.
I dont' see why any of those two countries would be forced to give up an inch of their territory as a result of a Kurdish state being created out of Iraq?
What do you imagine the Kurds living in Turkey or Iran would do if there were an independent Kurdistan to their south or west?
I'll tell you what Turkey and Iran would imagine: That those Kurds would use Kurdistan as a base of operations for an insurgency in Turkey and Iran respectively. This would lead to a war between Turkey and Kurdistan and Iran and Kurdistan.
defend itself from what
and Israel helping wit the effort??
you do know an unstable Iraq is ideal for Israel, you got terrorists in Iraq from both sides too busy killing each other to worry about Israel
Read my previous posts. ~ Mainly referring to the insurgency/terrorists.
I said Israel training the Kurds is a good thing Doesnt mean it's true. Remember, Iran, Syria mostly were accusing Israel of helping out in Iraq. Look up to the fist post and read the article
Also having a stable Iraq where it isn't a breeding ground for terrorists helps Israel. Especially a pro-western Iraq. One can hope...
They would want to move to Kurdistan. So how would that be the US's fault?
Turkey wouldn't invade at all. They are smarter than that, plus they don't want to rip up relations with the US. Any insurgency should not be supported by the Kurdish government. Don't automatically assume that the Kurdish people will condone any violent revolt in those countries.
If Iran invaded Kurdistan, then the whole world has the right to bomb the **** out of Iran. No more ***** footing around this uranium enrichment ordeal. An invasion by Iran into Kurdistan would be treated like Iraq invading Kuwait back in the early 90's.
I did read your previous post:
but you do know the insurgency is a result of American troops' presence. Saddam was bad news, but as everyday passes, I'm more convinced he wasn't bad enough to be toppled with a war. And as bad as this sounds, Iraq and the region around was safer under Saddam's dictatorship than it is now. I pray for all the Iraqis and I hope they are strong enough to withstand this hell that doesn't seem will go away anytime soon
Hence why its America's obligation to give Iraq a well trained, well outfitted military to be able to handle any insurgency.
Why not? It's better than naively assuming they wouldn't.
Understanding the realities of the region is far more important than jingoistically hoping for the best.
very doubtful israel wants any part of the iraqi mess.
also, BBC has NOT been a friend to Israel for the past decade. In fact England has such a large muslim population, i wouldnt put it past the story being planted.
funny part is that the kurds, like israelis have been picked on for decades by oppressive islamic military attacks.
Do you have any evidence of this (either BBC bias or "planting"?
You are clueless, aren't you. Giving the Kurds their own state is pretty much setting off a brand new conflict in the ME. One of Turkey's biggest hurdles to membership in the EU is their oppressive treatment of the Kurds. IF, the Iraqi Kurds get their own state, the Turkish Kurds will do everything possible to join them.
While I'm all for Kurdish independence, I'm not for having the IDF encourage a new conflagration in the ME by training Kurds. Kurdish independence needs to come after Turkey is a member of the EU and after Iraq is stable. Another war in the region will only attract more militants. Israel doesn't want and can't afford to have conflict in the ME end. It's the sole justification for the country's existence and feeds its budget billions of dollars a year from the US and this is just further proof of it. The Mossad and the IDF have become more powerful than the KGB or the CIA. If there's no conflict, there's no reason for their continued existence.
Not to mention, that as I recall, we promised Turkey way back in 2002 when we were planning this invasion, that an independent Kurdish state would NOT result from our actions.
Of course, we've broken plenty of pledges before, but it doesn't help any the next time we give our word to a foreign nation.