It's about time someone sent Jobs to the "LOONIE BIN!"

[Diatribe]

Now, you're getting silly. At no point, did I say surveys/statistics is DA TRUTH. I simply asked that people provide some evidence to back up their claims when they make blanket statements like "Apple's quality has gone down hill." Give me some 'hard facts,' as you yourself say.

The J.D. Power Survey is actually quite instructive because it's measuring one variable, via the same methodology, over time. And what it shows is that Apple consumers' satisfaction has gone up in recent years. Yes, I know, consumer satisfaction does not equal reliability but there is a connection. If reliability has indeed gone down hill so much in recent years, it would be reflected in consumer satisfaction (unless you claim some vast conspiracy and that all Mac purchasers are brainwashed).

And yes, I do think Consumer Reports surveys from 2004 and J.D.Power's surveys ARE more credible than your impressions and anecdotes.

P.S. In case you missed it: "Three months ago, in the September 2004 issue, Consumer Reports rated Apple as the #1 manufacturer for both technical support and repair history, for both desktop systems and laptop systems, based on their annual subscriber survey." Now, how do you propose to measure reliability if you don't ask people about their computer's repair history? And 39,000 IS a significant sample for a survey; 5% of that 39,000 is roughly 2,000.

I was just saying that your sources were as good as me saying it is that way. Maybe we're overly critical of Apple and other vendors struggle with the same problems but at least they don't get publicized like Apple's.
A survey that measures customer satisfaction and equals it with repairs... And also 2,000 people in a survey doesn't quite make it representative. I have yet to see hard numbers regarding reliability. Since we both don't have those facts I guess we should call it quits and both have our opinion.

 

[marchcapital]

And Mike Dell hasn't changed with world with his "low cost" PCs

yes he has. the poor unlucky few who dont have the income to buy a $2500 ibm or other expensive pc still has the chance if they buy a dell. Mike Dell has been around for a heck of alot less time then Jobs and yet he has 90 percent of the computer market. thast pretty world changing in a sense.

 

[yellow]

it wouldnt hurt apple in anyway to just test the market and see how much demand there would be.

Except when Apple sees a dip in their already sluggish comptuer sales because people can buy it on a Dell?

And suddenly have to change their support model to now support Dell hardware, which means a much larger output of cash to train & pay support people?

And when it doesn't work out, the embarassment in the business sector?

Nope, wouldn't hurt much.

I think maybe you should look back at when Apple licensed their OS for clones in the late 90s. Mega failure. The loss in hardware sales almost cost them the company (again). Granted times have changed a bit. OS X is a better product, and iPod sales are a nice cushion. But ultimately, the transition to a n OS producer will be a SLOW, CAREFUL more. Assuming it ever happens. Which it won't.

 

[yellow]

And Mike Dell hasn't changed with world with his "low cost" PCs

yes he has. the poor unlucky few who dont have the income to buy a $2500 ibm or other expensive pc still has the chance if they buy a dell. Mike Dell has been around for a heck of alot less time then Jobs and yet he has 90 percent of the computer market. thast pretty world changing in a sense.

Sooooo.. once again, you're contradicting your own argument?

I'm out. Good luck with your theory.

 

[marchcapital]

Except when Apple sees a dip in their already sluggish comptuer sales because people can buy it on a Dell?

if they already have sluggish computer sales, and if they tested the computer market and ppl went from buying apple hardware to os x on a pc, doesnt that ring some alarm bells. i realise that there current business model is selling hardware, although, not all business models last forever. you have to change with the times. thats sometimes painful, and im sure apple is no newbie to ups and downs, but in the end it will work out if the demand is there.

 

[marchcapital]

Sooooo.. once again, you're contradicting your own argument?

I'm out. Good luck with your theory.

o my. i dont understand you, please explain how im contradicting myself?

 

[mashinhead]

I have to disagree, with the half-assed statements like everyone. Their products are great. But, at this point, i'm so sick of waiting for a decent laptop (yes i'm aware the MBP is good, but if you don't want a 15" you screwed, cos right now they really only sell one laptop) that i kind of which they would just license it out already. Instead of making me wait 3 mos. One day someone will crack it anyway, so might as well just let it out there and save everyone a whole lot of time. Besides steve jobs has made it pretty clear that ipods and not computers, are his proirity.

 

[marchcapital]

the reliability of apples hardware contradicts how reliable the os is.

 

[gauchogolfer]

Besides steve jobs has made it pretty clear that ipods and not computers, are his proirity.

I think this is a bit of an over-reach. Apple has released a completely revamped range of computers in the last months, and has good plans in place for OS 10.5. iPods make a lot of money for Apple, but I don't think Macs are going anywhere.

 

[Timepass]

Err.. if I got a Mac with Tiger on it and went out and bought a non-edu retail version of Tiger for $129. It's not an upgrade. It's a full, retail, install.

Not sure what you're getting at here.

What I was pointing out is everyone keeps saying how much a full retail verson of windows cost compared to tiger. But it not really fair to do it that way. The only way to compare is to the upgraded verson of windows.

I was more pointing out that all retail copies you buy off the shelf of OSX are in "upgrade verson" because for OSX to be legal the computer would of had to of had apple already install one of there OS OEM. It just does not have the same restriction that the "upgrade" windows would because they know for a fact that all the legal installs of the OSX are going on a computer that at one point in time Apple themselves instaled it on. No need to check for that. Heck you can not install OSX on a PC with out jumping though a ton of hoops any ways.

Only really installs on a computer apple built and if apple built it means that an OS was already installed on it. So the new installs dont run that check.

 

[gwangung]

if they already have sluggish computer sales, and if they tested the computer market and ppl went from buying apple hardware to os x on a pc, doesnt that ring some alarm bells. i realise that there current business model is selling hardware, although, not all business models last forever. you have to change with the times. thats sometimes painful, and im sure apple is no newbie to ups and downs, but in the end it will work out if the demand is there.

Um, I'm not sure you realize how hard it's going to be.

Back of the envelope numbers indicate that Apple would have to increase sales by 10 TIMES to get the same amount of profit they do now.

Not gonna happen without a lot of disruption and a serious chance of the company going under. And not even Apple is nimble enough to pull that off.

 

[Passante]

Micheal Dell has sent an email to Steve Jobs expressing his great intrest in offering Mac OS X to his pc customers. Jobs doesnt feel like its time, even thought the quality of the hardware his company produces is getting worse and not better.

There would be so many more ppl willing to switch to os x if they could do so on a pc. snip

Well does this satisfy you?

http://www.apple.com/macosx/bootcamp/

 

[dr_lha]

People seem to forget the fact that OS X only costs 129 dollars ( i think) and well most revenue comes from the computers themselves

That's the upgrade price for OS X.

 

[eva01]

That's the upgrade price for OS X.

So then if i wipe my entire HD and put linux on my powermac. If i go out and buy Leopard next year for the powermac I have to buy a different version of OS X? Its going to cost more because linux is on there and no OS X

I don't really think you are upgrading OS X when you are going from linux to OS X, that makes no sense

 

[jefhatfield]

Micheal Dell has sent an email to Steve Jobs expressing his great intrest in offering Mac OS X to his pc customers. Jobs doesnt feel like its time, even thought the quality of the hardware his company produces is getting worse and not better.

There would be so many more ppl willing to switch to os x if they could do so on a pc. I would pay 300 bucks or more for the os x software if it was lisenced for pc's and i could get tech and customer support. Microsoft doesnt sell hardware the same way apple does, because they concentrate on writing software. They let other companies worry about the hardware.

Steve Jobs would be a much richer man if he concentrated on Software and iPods. Its better to make a few things extraordinary then alot of things half assed.

i agree with the above statement, but not the title

here's why...if i had a company, any company in any market and i had to hire a presenter it would be steve jobs, and he would definitely get my vote as chief creative designer, or chief software architect (a title that bill gates has with microsoft which deals more with what people would want in the future vs. being a straight ahead genius programmer)

steve jobs is truly visionary as to what people will want next, except some others, dell/gates/"fill in the blank", come along and use a steve jobs idea/concept and make much more money on it...steve jobs is sometimes a brilliant businessman and sometimes the worst i can imagine and it's those bad times that make me personally want to put him into the looney bin

sometimes, in his enthusiasm, which is genuine and refreshing, he does take a little liberty with the facts and the bad thing is that he does not know the public knows when he is adding a little too much to the truth

i think it's more likely, as according to tech guru and writer/editor john dvorak, that apple inc will likely go to windows vs. the PC world coming to os x...but either way, apple inc machines with os x or windows, will still be one of the best machines out there in the low, medium, and high price range markets on desktops and laptops

 

[dr_lha]

So then if i wipe my entire HD and put linux on my powermac. If i go out and buy Leopard next year for the powermac I have to buy a different version of OS X? Its going to cost more because linux is on there and no OS X

like when you buy a computer straight from the yellow dog people that put linux on it. I don't really think you are upgrading OS X when you are going from linux to OS X, that makes no sense

Any computer bought from Apple has the price of OS X included with it. If you own a Mac then you already own a license for OS X. Hence any boxed version of OS X is an upgrade to your existing license.

EDIT: Its not an upgrade in the Windows sense, where you're required to have a previous version of the OS on the computer, but an upgrade in the license sense.

Come on, this isn't rocket science people.

 

[eva01]

Any computer bought from Apple has the price of OS X included with it. If you own a Mac then you already own a license for OS X. Hence any boxed version of OS X is an upgrade to your existing license.

EDIT: Its not an upgrade in the Windows sense, where you're required to have a previous version of the OS on the computer, but an upgrade in the license sense.

Come on, this isn't rocket science people.

and it is not a true upgrade if i don't have OS X on my computer i can't upgrade it as it is not there.

Come on, this isn't rocket science people.

So now you change your wording proving that i was right that it isn't an upgrade of OS X

 

[dr_lha]

and it is not a true upgrade if i don't have OS X on my computer i can't upgrade it as it is not there.

Come on, this isn't rocket science people.

You already own a copy of OSX, so yes it is a upgrade. What about this point are you missing?

 

[eva01]

You already own a copy of OSX, so yes it is a upgrade. What about this point are you missing?

we are talking to different versions of the word upgrade. I consider an upgrade 10.4 >>> 10.4.2 or XP SP 1 >>>> XP SP2 Which it is.

 

[dr_lha]

So now you change your wording proving that i was right that it isn't an upgrade of OS X

You're being pedantic about what an upgrade means. The only reason Windows "upgrade" versions care about if you have a previous OS on the machine is becuase Microsoft have no way of knowing if the machine you're installing it on otherwise had an licensed copy of Windows before.

In the case of Macs, all Macs have a licensed copy of OS X, it comes with the computer.

So the point remains, a $129 boxed copy of Tiger is an upgrade version, not a stand alone version.

 

[2nyRiggz]

Aint gonna happen. Apple has its own hardwear to deal with....don't need dell to take it away.


Bless

 

[dr_lha]

we are talking to different versions of the word upgrade. I consider an upgrade 10.4 >>> 10.4.2 or XP SP 1 >>>> XP SP2 Which it is.

OK, so why are you arguing with my assertion that $129 is the cost of a upgrade version of Tiger? The purpose of this boxed version is to upgrade a Mac from whatever version of Mac OS it came with to Tiger.

Whether you formatted the HD and put Linux in between the computer shipping and you buying Tiger is irrelevant to Apple. To them, the box is an upgrade.

 

[jefhatfield]

I have to disagree, with the half-assed statements like everyone. Their products are great. But, at this point, i'm so sick of waiting for a decent laptop (yes i'm aware the MBP is good, but if you don't want a 15" you screwed, cos right now they really only sell one laptop) that i kind of which they would just license it out already. Instead of making me wait 3 mos. One day someone will crack it anyway, so might as well just let it out there and save everyone a whole lot of time. Besides steve jobs has made it pretty clear that ipods and not computers, are his proirity.

the half assed statements which i see most mac users proclaim do not come from not being tech savvy or dedicated to having a great os and adding their input into apple, it's a cleverly crafted set of mac mythology stories which circulate which has made a lot of people in the PC world think we are either nuts, or can't count...some mac mythologists are like the creationists who believe the world, according to one popular figure, is 4004 years old, according to a famous claim from a pope, oh yeah, made centuries ago...i wonder when a 4004 year old earth becomes 4005 years old

i am a much better mac evangelist than the average mac evangelist who likes to overstate things and make old windows 95 attacks try to relate directly to windows xp (which only discredits the mac user)...i put out all the facts the way i see them, good and bad, and i trust the windows person can compare that to the list of good and bad they have seen with windows and come to their own conclusion

instead of talking about how bad windows is with getting attacked by viruses, i explain why os x is less vulenerable

instead of saying my ibook is better than your inspiron, i let them try it out and discover the cool things i did on my own...it's great to see a windows person comment on how clean os 9 or os x looks and how much more logical it is...you can see that in 15 minutes, so you don't have to preach to them like some neo nazi or talk down to them

and don't try and make steve jobs christlike, since he is not apple inc...apple inc is a company that has had a lot of great minds, many of which don't have stupid known quotes the press loves to print ala steve jobs

steve jobs is like newt gingrich...very smart and a great motivator but not always so great in interviews

 

[Timepass]

and it is not a true upgrade if i don't have OS X on my computer i can't upgrade it as it is not there.

Come on, this isn't rocket science people.

So now you change your wording proving that i was right that it isn't an upgrade of OS X

Ok you find me a computer you can legally install OSX on it that did not come with an Apple OS on it to start with.
I' waitng....
Oh you faile to find one because there are none to be found.

The only legal requirement to satifiy upgraded verson of XP is to have windows 98 or after. I believe you can even install upgrade verson of XP on a computer with no OS by providing a Key from one of the other OSes. (Not 100% sure on it and never tested it. It just not something commonly done) I do know for a fact I could do a clean install on another hard drive. All the XP cds contain the same code. Only differnect is what is installed.

 

[jefhatfield]

thats bull **** as well, i told you he was a hippie. he hasnt come close to changing the world. i hate to be the force of reason, but if your a hardware company that aint going to do anything to change the world. now a software company on the other hand may be able to create somthing that could come close to changing the world, like in the medical field or sumthing. jobs is going to have to get his priorities straightened out.

i actually think it's great that there was a person like steve jobs and steve wozniak who wanted to change the world...did they? in the field of home computers, yes, but they didn't change the world in general as much as mao, stalin, einstein, jfk, ghandi, saddam hussein, or many others for good or bad to the same degree

and then there are people like gates and allen who wanted to make money

guess what, the world needs visionaries and businessmen, and he he, politicians (on all sides) to function

and what's so bad about steve jobs being a hippie? i have been a tech for many years and a lot of us are hippies, and most, in the bay area at least, are quite liberal like myself...i would hate to think what apple inc would be like if it were run by a staff of people who were exactly like george w bush