Jaguar

[ntg]

Originally posted by neilt


Scanners worked in 9 with third party drivers - THIS IS NOT APPLES FAULT.

Look at VueScan, this software can control how many different brands of scanners? Yet the manufacturers can't seem to get their act together to get a driver out the door?

If Apple throws built in support for scanners into Jaguar, fantastic. But to expect it in 10.1.5, when it was never there before doesn't make sense.
This is not a fix for Apple to make. They didn't support it in the OS before (not even for their own scanners), why should they do it now?

neilt

This is from Epson's OSX Q/A page:-

Q: Do the drivers, included with Mac OS X, contain all the features of Epson's current Mac drivers?
A: In the current release of Mac OS X, some printing features are not supported, including custom paper sizes, banner printing, booklet printing, and watermarks. ColorSync color matching may produce unexpected results when printing to any raster printer. As Apple updates and adds features to the operating system, we expect to be able to increase not only the number of compatible drivers, but also the functionality of those drivers.

All I know is, it's NOT my fault, so why not fix these things rather than make me pay $129 ?

 

[neilt]

ntg: I was commenting specifically about the scanner support. I do happen to agree with you about the printing issue. these features were provided under os 9, and should be provided under os x. I have an Epson 9000 sitting behind me, and I waste alot of paper on this thing when using illustrator 10 due to the lack of custom paper sizes.
but since 90% of what I am trying to print to it is in quark, i use classic to print to it anyway

however, scanners weren't support then and we shouldn't expect them to be supported now.

 

[ntg]

Originally posted by neilt
ntg: I was commenting specifically about the scanner support. I do happen to agree with you about the printing issue. these features were provided under os 9, and should be provided under os x. I have an Epson 9000 sitting behind me, and I waste alot of paper on this thing when using illustrator 10 due to the lack of custom paper sizes.
but since 90% of what I am trying to print to it is in quark, i use classic to print to it anyway

however, scanners weren't support then and we shouldn't expect them to be supported now.

Sorry, here's the bit about scanners:-
Q: Which EPSON scanners are supported by Mac OS X native mode directly?
A: Epson America is committed to releasing Scanner Mac OS X drivers. At this time, Scanner Mac OS X drivers have not been released because the TWAIN Working Group and Apple have not finalized the specification for OS X TWAIN. No scanner vendor is able to release Mac OS X TWAIN drivers until the TWAIN specification is finalized some time later this year. However, as an interim solution, we have posted a Twain driver and utility program called Scan to File that you can use with some of our Epson scanner models. For users who want to scan from Photoshop 7, we have also posted an Epson scanner plug-in. The utility and plug-in are trial versions only, therefore, we cannot provide any technical support. Use the following links which will take you to the Epson Developer web site where you can download these programs.
Epson Developer Web Site - Scan To File
Epson Developer Web Site - Plug-in Module for Adobe Photoshop
In the meantime, drivers are being developed, so, please check our website for updates. Until drivers are made available, you may also consider using the current Epson drivers in Mac OS X Classic environment.
For Perfection 1250/1650/2450 users: To provide the greatest level of compatibility, Epson is coordinating the release of their Mac OS X drivers with the planned release of the Mac OS X compatible versions of the major image editing software packages. This should take place in the 3rd quarter of 2002. We regret any inconvenience, but feel that this decision better serves our customers.

As I understand, 'Trial versions' are not to be used in business areas, and as such these are hardly 'real world' tools to use. Over to Apple and the TWAIN group...

So again, what are the options with 10.1.5 ? (apart from 9.2!)
(and before anyone flames me, I'd like to point out that I administer NT networks [from my G4-533DP, of course!), and with all the new bits in 10.2 I've already ordered the upgrades. I'm just trying to make the same points as the MD, and see if anyone else has a more persuasive answer rhat I could pass on!)

 

[neilt]

Originally posted by ntg


(epson excuses deleted)
In the meantime, drivers are being developed, so, please check our website for updates. Until drivers are made available, you may also consider using the current Epson drivers in Mac OS X Classic environment.
For Perfection 1250/1650/2450 users: To provide the greatest level of compatibility, Epson is coordinating the release of their Mac OS X drivers with the planned release of the Mac OS X compatible versions of the major image editing software packages. This should take place in the 3rd quarter of 2002. We regret any inconvenience, but feel that this decision better serves our customers.

As I understand, 'Trial versions' are not to be used in business areas, and as such these are hardly 'real world' tools to use. Over to Apple and the TWAIN group...

So again, what are the options with 10.1.5 ? (apart from 9.2!)
(and before anyone flames me, I'd like to point out that I administer NT networks [from my G4-533DP, of course!), and with all the new bits in 10.2 I've already ordered the upgrades. I'm just trying to make the same points as the MD, and see if anyone else has a more persuasive answer rhat I could pass on!)

Again I mention VueScan. This is $49 dollar software that will control these epson scanners that epson says can't be controlled. It also controls:

SCSI Film Scanners supported:
Nikon LS-20, LS-1000, LS-30, LS-2000, Minolta QuickScan 35, Scan Dual, Scan Multi, Scan Multi Pro, Scan Speed, Scan Elite, Polaroid SprintScan 120, SprintScan 4000, Microtek ArtixScan 4000, Microtek 35t+, Polaroid SprintScan 35/LE/+, Microtek 45t+, Polaroid SprintScan 45, Canon FS2700, FS2710, FS4000, HP PhotoSmart, Acer ScanWit 2720S and 2740S, Epson FilmScan 200, Konica Qscan

FireWire Scanners supported (Windows, Mac OS 9.x/10.1):
Nikon LS-4000, LS-8000, Polaroid SprintScan 120, Minolta Scan Elite II, Scan Multi Pro, and all Epson, Microtek and UMAX Firewire scanners

USB Film Scanners supported:
Nikon CoolScan IV (LS-40), Canon FS4000, Minolta Scan Dual II, Minolta Scan Elite II, HP PhotoSmart S20 (S20 on Windows only)

SCSI Flatbed scanners supported:
Epson, HP, Microtek, UMAX, Acer and AGFA SnapScan flatbed scanners as well as rebadged Microtek scanners (AGFA DuoScan, AGFA StudioScan), rebadged UMAX scanners (Linotype-Hell Office, Jade, Saphir, Nikon AX-210, KYE ColorPage HR5, Epson Perfection 600) and rebadged Canon scanners (Apple Color OneScanner 600)

LM983X USB Flatbed scanners supported:
Epson 1250U, Canon N650U, N656U, D660U, N670U, N676U, N1220U, N1240U, HP 2100, 2200, Umax 3400, 5400, BearPaw 1200, 2400, Genius ColorPage-HR6, Plustek OpticPro

Other USB Flatbed scanners supported:
Most Epson, Acer and AGFA USB flatbed scanners as well as Microtek X12USL, 4700 and 8700

For Epson, or any other manufacturer to blame Apple and OS 10.1.5 for their lack of drivers is ridiculous. This one software package controls almost everything. I have personally used it with a Canon 1220u, Polaroid Sprint Scan 4000 and a Linoscan 1450. And the software is better than most of the stuff you get with general use scanners. And as near as I can tell from the Hamrick Software website, this was all written by one guy and it works in OS 9 as well as X.

and what is that in Epson's statement about waiting till 3rd quarter for software to ship? When did Photoshop come out. I have had it for several months now.

Again - I am not flaming you, nor do I think that your point about the printers is offbase in anyway....it is just this scanner issue. I really don't see how this is Apple's fault. If Ed Hamrick can write software (that has been out since at least March), why can't these scanner manufacturers get it out the door.
Damn, license it from Hamrick and ship already!

neilt

 

[hoshi]

Re: Yes it does

Originally posted by nuckinfutz


10.2 is beyond a bug fix it offers new features like Quartz extreme

thats where you are wrong. apple has always claimed quartz support in osx. that is the whole point of osx. its 3d rendering quartz desktop

just cause 10.2 came out and they started calling it quartz "extreme" instead of just quartz doesnt mean its anything more than a few tweeks to more fully support Quartz.

quartz and quartz extreme are the same thing is my point.

they are just adding the extreme because there is better support for quartz in jaguar (actually its support that always should have been there)

lets have 10.2 a free upgrade or 120$ for a full install.

 

[big]

>lets have 10.2 a free upgrade or 120$ for a full install

when you buy 10.2, that's what you are getting, a full install. It's like owning 7.6, then wanting to go up to 8.0, or 8.5. You just bought the newest full install CD

 

[chmorley]

Re: Re: Yes it does

Originally posted by hoshi
thats where you are wrong. apple has always claimed quartz support in osx. that is the whole point of osx. its 3d rendering quartz desktop

just cause 10.2 came out and they started calling it quartz "extreme" instead of just quartz doesnt mean its anything more than a few tweeks to more fully support Quartz.

quartz and quartz extreme are the same thing is my point.

What are you sniffing?

There is no indication that Apple initially intended to use graphics cards to accelerate Quartz. As a matter of fact, the tweaking of the widgets in the interface would clearly indicate they hadn't foreseen how they might accomplish this. No one had ever done 3d acceleration with a graphics card before. They likely noticed the lags in the interface and started trying to figure out how to improve the speed. This required innovation. QE is not "the same thing" as Quartz.

You simply made this up, then stated it as fact.

That's stupid.

And wrong.

Chris

 

[hoshi]

its an upgrade

Originally posted by big
>lets have 10.2 a free upgrade or 120$ for a full install

when you buy 10.2, that's what you are getting, a full install.

nope its an upgrade. you have to have 10 installed in order to "upgrade" to 10.2

 

[Rower_CPU]

Re: its an upgrade

Originally posted by hoshi
nope its an upgrade. you have to have 10 installed in order to "upgrade" to 10.2

Where did you hear that?

You can boot from the install CD and install 10.2 to a formatted HD, with no prompting for a 10.0/10.1 CD.

 

[coolfactor]

Upgrade Cost

It's unfortunate that many people purchased a computer *expecting* Jaguar to be a free/low-cost upgrade. It's funny that most people don't realize that these message/rumors boards are largely to blame. There is so many assumptions and speculation on these boards, I'm not surprised that emotions get worked up and people get disappointed. People, you're doing it to yourselves, and only you can change that outcome... not Apple. Good luck folks.

Ted

 

[coolfactor]

Quartz vs. Quartz Extreme

QE is not "the same thing" as Quartz.

I agree that Quartz Extreme and Quartz are not the same thing. I remember reading that for those Macs that don't have the needed hardware, OS X "falls back" to Quartz [Classic].

 

[Rower_CPU]

Re: Quartz vs. Quartz Extreme

Originally posted by coolfactor
I agree that Quartz Extreme and Quartz are not the same thing. I remember reading that for those Macs that don't have the needed hardware, OS X "falls back" to Quartz [Classic].

...and fortunately, still sees performance increases over 10.1.5.

 

[ibookin']

Re: Upgrade Cost

Originally posted by coolfactor
It's unfortunate that many people purchased a computer *expecting* Jaguar to be a free/low-cost upgrade.

People who purchased a computer recently get the upgrade for $19.99. Also, Amazon is offering a $50 rebate on Jaguar, knocking the price down to $79, in my opinion a reasonable level for the improvements 10.2 gives us. Personally, I'll be buying Jaguar for $69 using my education discount.

 

[chmorley]

...not the same thing...

This is not simply a matter of opinion. The OS was re-thought, changing it dramatically. To educate yourself (for those ignorant whiners out there), check out the presentation on the subject presented at SIGGRAPH 2002 by Peter Graffagnino, Apple's Director of Graphics and Imaging (and mentioned on the front page here).

Chris

 

[hoshi]

Re: Re: Upgrade Cost

Originally posted by ibookin'@mwny

Personally, I'll be buying Jaguar for $69 using my education discount.

how do you use your education discount???
i wanna try

 

[Rower_CPU]

Re: Re: Re: Upgrade Cost

Originally posted by hoshi
how do you use your education discount???
i wanna try

Buy it from your school's bookstore, or online via Apple's Educational store.

 

[BongHits]

in my opinion, apple needs our money more than anyone else in the computer industry (this is their time to shine since everyone else is failing). my reasoning is this: all of these nice new aquisitions and developers apple has been picking up recently are all forming up to look pretty huge imo. all of this development and work that's going into os x has to cost mad loot, and apple really needs some right now. so they pushed os x 10.2 out the door, slapped a fat sticker on it, and are trying to fill up a bottomless resevoir of cash for the long road ahead against M$.
buy 10.2 because i don't want to live in M$ dominant system. o and it has a couple nice features (QE & rendevouz ).

 

[hoshi]

i disagree .
where does all the money from macworld go to?

i think that apple has more money than you would think.

apple is far from poor. plus they have tons of realestate
i doubt theyre anywhere neer cutting it close.

sounds to me like a media act to get more money.

i would love to give them tons of money just for being the best and wanting them to succeed dont get me wrong.

i just dont see how they could be hurting right now.
unless they are just fools with money and miss-appropriating etc.
which i doubt seriously ¬.¬

 

[chmorley]

Originally posted by hoshi
i disagree .
where does all the money from macworld go to?

i think that apple has more money than you would think.

apple is far from poor. plus they have tons of realestate
i doubt theyre anywhere neer cutting it close.

sounds to me like a media act to get more money.

i would love to give them tons of money just for being the best and wanting them to succeed dont get me wrong.

i just dont see how they could be hurting right now.
unless they are just fools with money and miss-appropriating etc.
which i doubt seriously ¬.¬

Call it a hunch--you don't own your own business, do you? You've never run an event, have you? And I'm betting you've never paid a staff. FYI, my wife runs large corporate events like MWxx. She says that Apple likely makes little or nothing from them.

I'm certainly not arguing that Apple is poor, but their goal is not to be poor+1. It's to make as much money as they can. This includes covering all expenses (which most people who don't run their own businesses almost always underestimate).

Their job is to charge the right price for software so that they can maximize profits. It is not to be kind to its loyal users. The fact that they do that at all is simply a sign that they are good business-people.

Some day this will make sense to you, and you will not be angry. After all, do you get angry about paying for your groceries?

Chris