Kerry calls for 1 million more college grads

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by zimv20, Jun 30, 2004.

  1. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #1
    link

     
  2. CramSoup macrumors member

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    #2
    Kerry is also the first to run saying he was going to reform health care!!!!!
     
  3. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #3
    kerry means well, and i am voting for him, but it's easy for an opponent to ask

    1) how will you pay for it, really?
    2) and who will make $900,000 dollars more?

    sounds kind of fishy to me and it's banter like this which makes my party, the democrats, seem so full of it with the more centrist voters out there who know better

    it also leaves us democrats open for the old gop attack of calling the democrats the tax and spend party

    i think kerry needs to make inroads in more widespread education, but he should keep within the realms of possibility and not promise something he can't deliver
     
  4. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #4
    well, there was an article in the Washington Post concerning Kerry and Bush in terms of issues come November. Here is the link:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10538-2004Jun27.html
    Basically, it covers Kerrys' Health Care Initiative, which will cost between $650-950 Billion over ten years. His Education proposal, overall, will cost $ 200 Billion. Boy, you say...that's alot of cash, what do I get? With regards to Health care, 27 million more people will be covered and the government will take care of catastrophic (the most expensive) care for businesses. The full outline of the Education Initiative was not covered, but obviously covers more than the University enrollment linked, which appears to cost $10 Billion...

    Well, that's crazy talk, you say...where will we get this pile of cash? Well, Kerry wants to roll back the Bush Tax Cuts on those earning more than $200k a year. The top two tax rates will be changed from the current 33% and 35% to 36% and 39.6% respectively, which is what they were before Bush took office...in addition, Kerry will reverse the cuts in the dividend and capital-gains taxes. This will all net about $860 Billion. I do not know where Kerry will get the rest, unless his Health Care Initiative costs the low-ball figure, which is probably unlikely...

    Bush, on the other hand, wishes to make his tax cuts permanent, at a cost of $990 Billion over 10 years...I think everyone is familiar with his Health Care and Educational Initiatives...

    So the choice is:
    Tax cuts made permanent (affecting those it already does, mostly the rich(er)) or
    Health Care and Educational overhaul...

    Now, I do not know if Kerry would be able to get his Initiatives through a Republican-controlled Congress, or if the continuing cost of the War and balooning deficit, will make him have to trim his proposals (assuming he wins in NOV.), but I like it better than the alternative...

    We shall see how the Republican attack-dogs spin this as the election draws nearer...

    FYI...
     
  5. Chip NoVaMac macrumors G3

    Chip NoVaMac

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    #5
    I would assume that it will be through spending cuts elsewhere. Also realistically the Republican tax cuts may be rolled back.

    The quote was "In an era when college graduates will earn $900,000 more than high school graduates over the course of a career...".

    I am not sure that I am following you. The reference is that college grads earn more over the course of their career. That I think most of us can support.

    The issue is that due to the slower economy and greater demands for unfunded Federal mandates, the states have raided the college funds. Tuitions are rising at many colleges at 10 to 20 percent a year.

    I think college costs strikes a nerve for many voters, regardless of the Party.

    And it is time for the Democrats to shoot back that the GOP stands for "tax cuts and spend", leading to deficit spending.

    The key to the $10 billion is that it is probably not a one year expenditure. More than likely it would be over 5 to 10 years. That means only $1 to $2 billion a year. A much more doable number.

    It is the centrist voters that i am most afraid of. They only hear what they want, and not think of the bigger picture. They hear a candidate call for tax cuts. But they don't ask where the money will come from to pay for the tax cuts, where are the spending cuts. They don't look at fees paid to go to a park or for cable TV as a tax, but it is.
     
  6. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #6
    1) tax cuts

    republican tax cuts...many of us will concede that the rich benefit the most and that's not good for the country as a whole, but there are many "non-rich" out there who like the cuts, and for various reasons

    2) college

    college grads could make more with a degree, whether it's the most common bachelor's, or less common master's, phd, or even associate degree...certifications also help, too in most cases...but there are bigger factors in one's earning potential...location, chosen industy of job, one's work ethic, overall economy and recessions and booms, innate ability of the individual to thrive in various work environments with different and sometimes difficult people, and yes, luck...so a degree is no guarantee

    i remember when i was in college and the professor said one could make a hundred grand more in a lifetime and it blew us all away...and that was in the 80s...but i don't know where, with inflation and a couple of decades, that there could be some pol out there spouting out numbers like nine hundred thousand...nine times more?

    so in twenty years would it be fair for me to say that the average college grad will make 8.1 million more in a lifetime than a non-college grad? god, if that were true, i wouldn't mind paying 200k a year for a college education ;)

    3) centrist voters

    i am a centrist voter and i cannot see myself blindly taking the democratic platform in full of the gop platform in full

    i like to read and research both sides very thoroughly and besides the left leaning publications i usually agree with, i also make it a point to hear the more right leaning radio talk show circuit, fox news, and read right leaning commentary by the national review, george f will, all the way to michael savage and rush limbaugh, who are not so much "political" commentary or well thought out research, as they are "entertainment" at the expense of the liberals...actually same can be said for michael moore making fun of the conservatives

    the centrists i have met in my life tend to let themselves hear and read both sides, whether it's serious commentary from experts like will, press, novak, etc, or if it's more entertainment like rush and savage, and the centrists i know tend to be more well educated in general and realize taking extreme black and white views is intellectual laziness and often times, ignorance
     
  7. Chip NoVaMac macrumors G3

    Chip NoVaMac

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    #7
    With tax cuts, people hear those words and don't think where those cuts are going to go.

    With college, look at Kerry's words. It was $900,000 over a career, not a year. Even using 40 years that amounts to just over $22,000 per a year over 40 years.

    Here in Virginia centrist voters helped elect Gilmore on the promise of the elimination of the car tax (property tax). They did not read his proposal. It stated that economy would have to remain strong. That it only applied to the first $20,000. And that it would be phased in over 5 years (by which time he would be out of office, and not held accountable). And offered no spending cuts to make up the lost revenue.

    That is why said centrist voters are an issue. They IMO vote on keywords, and little else. There are few IMO like yourself and myself that look into the promises before pulling a lever.
     
  8. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #8
    I'd prefer they focus education on the K-12. WIth Stafford Loans, Pell Grants, and scholarships anyone can go to college. They need to allow teachers to lay the ground work so students can succeed in college. Putting children in 20 to 1 ratios is a start.
     
  9. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #9

    now that is something i TOTALLY agree with

    college, as defined by a bachelor's degree or higher, is 26.1% percent of the population...almost all people in america have education stemming from the K-12 system

    i would rather focus on the majority, the K-12 students, who are our society's majority, and put the monies there

    our children are our future
     
  10. Voltron macrumors newbie

    Voltron

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    #10
    Kerry is for whatever will get him elected.
     
  11. zimv20 thread starter macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #11
    please substantiate that
     
  12. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #12
    It is not an either/or proposition and if you believe anyone can go to college it is obvious you haven't tried to go lately.
     
  13. Voltron macrumors newbie

    Voltron

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    #13
    Besides the fact that it is my personal opinion based on my observations of his wait a see approach, or wait to see polling data before taking a position, I also have this.
    http://www.flipflopper.com/
     
  14. Chip NoVaMac macrumors G3

    Chip NoVaMac

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    #14
    i would much rather have a candidate that can use what ever tools to decide on what is needed by the people that he/she represents; than one takes take an authoritarian stance and never admits a changing public stance on matters.
     
  15. Chip NoVaMac macrumors G3

    Chip NoVaMac

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    #15
    But is not No Child Left Behind was to correct all the ills of the public school system. :rolleyes:
     
  16. Voltron macrumors newbie

    Voltron

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    #16
    The day after 9/11 odds are the public stance was to nuke the Middle East. We need leaders in our country to lead, not follow.
     
  17. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #17
    but let's get our pririorities striaght and look at thinks realistically, with the budget in mind and how far the voters are willing to follow your plans

    i see this is like a car...

    1) K-12 is the engine and
    2) college is the shiny hubcaps, trim, and nice leather on the seats

    while the latter is fine but not 100 percent necessary in every case, your engine is key and without it, no car

    without k-12 running properly, everything else does not matter

    let's get the best teachers possible, and more teachers overall and pay them more, let's keep school facilities up to par and wired with technology, and let's keep class size as small as possible

    and how could we improve college if the children we bring into it, from the k-12 system, are not properly prepared for career, life, and yes, college?
     
  18. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #18
    and for those of you old enough to remember, in 1989, bush sr., hailed himself as the education president ;)
     
  19. Chip NoVaMac macrumors G3

    Chip NoVaMac

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    #19

    Nice point.

    We need someone that leads through the needs and desires of the people, not through their own personal beliefs systems. Otherwise we would still have slaves, the right to vote to only male landowners, and many other liberties that many more enjoy today than in years past.

    Maybe if there were no healthcare for our representatives, no pensions for them, and live hand to mouth like many do in this nation they would then take care of the needs that we have as a nation. Not taking care of the needs of the wealthy few.
     
  20. Chip NoVaMac macrumors G3

    Chip NoVaMac

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    #20
    Maybe he should have started with his VP :D
     
  21. zimv20 thread starter macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #21
    you claimed that kerry changes his position based on what will get him elected, for which i'll allow the assumption that such a change would follow changing poll data.

    please present some evidence that kerry changes his position based on polls. i did a cursory glance of the highly biased flipflopper site, and found an example where kerry said he didn't like SUVs, but his family owned one.

    that's hypocrisy, not flip-flopping, and certainly not a changed position based on polling.

    again, please substantiate your claim.
     
  22. themadchemist macrumors 68030

    themadchemist

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    #22
    There are a lot worse things to tax and spend on than education. And I'd rather be called 'tax and spend' than 'cut tax and spend.' Somehow, magic money bothers me.
     
  23. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #23
    bush sr. had no clue of the plight of the common man

    his dad was a wealthy politician, he went to an expensive private prep school (andover), and then went to an expensive college (yale and elite skull and bones member...who often go onto great positions power) on his family's dime and did not know what it was like to have to work through school or pay off stafford loans or credit cards

    and now his son, george w, is following the same path of wealth and privelidge as his dad, all while trying to make himself look like a regular working american from west texas who is in touch with middle class america ;)

    we need someone who has "been there" as a regular middle class american, like clinton, to help mend our school systems...i bet if laura bush, a former teacher, was in the white house, we would be better off for our schools...but she's just basically a decoration...i sometimes wish she was more like nancy or hilary and did "something" for america, especially for our school kids

    instead she plays it safe and doesn't want to take the strong first lady role...when w first got into office, i had hopes that his wife would help k-12 and influence her husband
     
  24. jefhatfield Retired

    jefhatfield

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    #24
    bush came up with magic money...it's called our defecit ;)
     
  25. pooky macrumors 6502

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    #25
    You keep saying that, and it's complete rubbish. Odds are that the public stance was to find out who did it and take care of them. I haven't heard a single person outside of conservative talk radio EVER advocate nuking the middle east. Now go find a poll that says >50% of people wanted to nuke the middle east after 9/11, or shut up and stop trying to hijack a thread about education with your nonsense.
     

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