Kerry on Iraq

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Backtothemac, Aug 17, 2004.

  1. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #1
    http://www.kerryoniraq.com/default.asp

    If anything, this shows just how political the man can be. Sad really. I think the democrats would have been better served with Howard Dean. He has always been anti-war, and I respect him for that. He doesn't flip flop like Kerry.
     
  2. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #2
    Dean would not only lose to Bush, he'd get crushed, and you know it. So no, the Democrats would not be better off with Dean (and neither would the nation). I'll grant that Kerry isn't as detailed as I'd like him to be on the subject of what he'd do with the mess in Iraq, but I this constant "flip-flop" charge from the GOP goes nowhere factually that I can see. It's just so much noise.
     
  3. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #3
    Bush flip flops as much as Kerry and that doesn't worry you? I admit I'd like a little more consistency from Kerry (and Bush for that matter), but you only seem bothered by Kerry's flip flops BTTM. Dubya's don't seem to phase you at all.
     
  4. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #4
    Well, you know, he is a politician, not unlike the current president. Don't tell me you still think it's possible to elect a true "political (Washington) outsider" like most of the inexperienced (or unqualified) politicians try to term themselves.
     
  5. Backtothemac thread starter macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #5
    Yea, I agree Bush has flip flopped on some stuff, but nothing to this depth and detail.

    If the swing voter sees this video. It's over.
     
  6. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #6
    "Some stuff?" How about nation-building, for one example?
     
  7. Leo Hubbard macrumors newbie

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    #7
    How about 9/11 being an important unforseen event causing people to change their opinions about such things.
     
  8. Bobcat37 macrumors member

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    #8
    Ah the game of politics is so fun. So do two wrongs make a right? Does crying out that Bush has also flip-flopped make Kerry's flip-flops acceptable? That's the vibe I'm getting (I'm just trying to be the middle man in this instance)

    Anyway, I found the documentary very interesting, it's nice to finally have one piece that puts together all of Mr. Kerry's various stances on the war in a nice chronological order.

    IJ- did you watch the video, because I'm not sure how you can say the "flip-flop charge from the GOP goes nowhere factually that I can see". I think you need glasses, or in this case a hearing-aide maybe o_O
     
  9. LeeTom macrumors 68000

    LeeTom

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    #9
    How about Yucca Mountain?
     
  10. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #10
    People can have such short and selective memories. During the campaign of 2000 (yes, before 9-11), Bush the candidate was attempting to draw a distinction between himself and the Clinton administration, which had intervened in Kosovo in what Republicans damned as a nation building campaign of the kind the US should not engage (with mandatory flashbacks to Somalia). Evidently the Clinton administration believed even prior to 9-11 that nation building efforts could be justified.

    So, apparently Bush "changed his mind" about the value of nation building after it was demonstrated that his previously stated policy was misguided and wrong. Then he not only doubled back 180 degrees from his previously firm position, he got us involved in the largest nation building campaign in modern history, and with completely insufficient planning.

    Boast again, Bush backers. I just love to hear you boast.
     
  11. Leo Hubbard macrumors newbie

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    #11
    9/11 changed everything. Now Nation building is in our best interest if it destroys a terrorist regime or a country which support terrorists in the process.

    Maybe they won't be stupid enough to play their games in our backyard. Imagine what we will do if they do it again.
     
  12. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #12
    No thankyou.
     
  13. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #13
    The only time you'll hear me harping on Bush's flip flops is when someone tries to bash Kerry because of his. Two wrongs definetly do not make a right, but when the GOP spin machine spends millions of advertising dollars and when people come in here harping about how much Kerry flip flops, you'll hear me comparing the two.

    Personally I don't care too much about a polititian's penchant for changing their mind. I care what side they are on right now, not how many times they've changed their minds.
     
  14. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #14
    Enough with the damn "flip flop" :roll:

    I'd like to see others flip flop more often. I shows they've learned something.
     
  15. Backtothemac thread starter macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #15
    Let me say this. I am one of those people that prior to 9/11 said for the US to get out of the business of nation building. The reason, we don't know how to do it, and no one does. Well, except W. Germany, and Japan. Anyway, the point is that 9/11 changed everything for me. I know some don't agree, but for me. It changed a lot about the way I feel about things in the world.

    So, that being said, Bush did flip flop on the issue of nation building, but it was because of 9/11. Kerry is flip flopping for political gain, and saying what democrats want to hear. That is the difference.
     
  16. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    I've watched most of this little film, and it is in a word, tripe. I find little in the way of contradiction in Kerry's positions, and the most "devastating" thing it reveals is Kerry making nuanced statements, which granted might be a bit too complicated for some people to understand. That is, when it quotes him in more than ten words at a time, which is rarely.
     
  17. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    I don't think so. I think Bush's 2000 statements about nation building were made to differentiate himself from the Clinton policy. It was policy tailor-made for political maneuvering. He had to go back on it because it wasn't ever realistic policy, and anybody who cared to know knew it four years ago.

    Sorry, but I don't see any flipping on Kerry's position on Iraq. Nobody's pointed it out to me yet.
     
  18. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #18
    so shouldn't the working examples be what they are ? examples on how to rebuilt a country ? ....
    of course iraq is in a completly different situation...
    (personally i think giving reconstruction work towards foreign companies isa big 'no-no'..to change that would be a start..give the know how to the iraqies and let them build it)

    personally i wasn't surprised by the 11the sept. (i keep '911' for Porsche) and it didn't change a thing except that i'm more interested in US politics

    the attack and the reaction of some politicians (you know who i mean) and the events untill today _confirmed_ my way how i feel about things in the world


    but i will shut up now and listen to my "the (international) noise conspiracy" cds ;)
     
  19. davecuse macrumors 6502

    davecuse

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    #19
    Thank You.

    There was obviously a terrorist threat prior to Sept 11th, what really frustrates me about the situation with terrorism is that no one examines why these people strap bombs to themselves. Most simply write them off as lunatics, while they are slightly demented in my point of view, I'm sure they believe there is a very good idealogical reason behind their hatred towards our country. As the old saying goes, you can't fight fire with fire, that is unless of course you are setting a perimeter fire to prevent the spread. :rolleyes: :confused:
     
  20. Leo Hubbard macrumors newbie

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    #20
    Why doesn't matter, once they chosen that path. We cannot allow others to see that terrorism works, and the only way to insure it doesn't work, is to not allow it to work.
     
  21. davecuse macrumors 6502

    davecuse

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    #21
    However, if you spend time examining why this has happened you can adjust our future foreign policy accordingly. We can always learn from the past. I agree that action needed to be taken against those responsible, however instead of focusing on Afganistan, we are in our current situation in Iraq.
     
  22. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

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    #22
    You break your arm and go to the hospital. You are in serious pain so the doc gives you some pain killers. Now, would you rather take pain killers the rest of your life or would you want the doc to fix your arm? Treating the symptom will never cure the problem.

    Post 9-11 that's all people did. I don't think I'll ever see as many documentaries on Afghanistan in such a short time period as long as I live. But even if you start to understand the why that doesn't meant that you can discover a "solution" in any timely manor. If people grew up thinking that it's normal to gun down women, during half-time of a football match, for showing too much ankle how do you convince them it's wrong? And are you going to be able to do it overnight? W/in the current generation?

    People who strap bombs to their chests and blow up bus loads of civilians are more than "slightly demented." I'd really hate to see your idea of truly f**ked up. ;) I'm sure they believe their reasons to their very core but that doesn't mean those reasons are logical. There are hordes of people manipulated and brainwashed by a minority of fanatics. The most difficult part is elminating the fanatics so that you can help enable the majority to lead and educate themselves. Superfically it looks like a conflict of interest to say, "We are here to help" as you have a running firefight thru the streets, but you have to eliminate the fanatics before you can help the rest of the population. Unfortunetly many of these leaders have public support (maybe not most but at least some). So it's like trying to seperate someone from a abusive relationship by force. It's never going to pretty, or easy.

    You have to wield a sword in one hand and a book in the other. Both have their time and place.


    Lethal
     
  23. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #23
    Which book?
     
  24. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #24
    and here i was dozing off, 'til i was woken by my own laugh...
     

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