Kerry voters please respond

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by kuyu, Apr 13, 2004.

  1. kuyu macrumors 6502a

    kuyu

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2003
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    Louisville
    #1
    My great uncle was a civil rights advisor to Clinton and Gore, but he loathes John Kerry. He's going to vote for him anyway, simply because Kerry is not Bush.

    If you plan on voting for Kerry, do you like him/agree with his politics or are you voting for him because he's not Bush?

    Just curious... :)
     
  2. vwcruisn macrumors regular

    Joined:
    May 7, 2003
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    Santa Monica, Ca
    #2
    voting because hes not bush. hes really to "middle of the road" for my taste. I voted for nader in 2000, and would like to do so again, but the stakes are simply too high this time around. Another 4 years of bush in office is a sickening thought.
     
  3. numediaman macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
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    Chicago (by way of SF)
    #3
    Things aren't as simple as "he's not Bush". If the Democratic candidate were Pat Buchanan or David Duke, I would not vote for them because they were "not Bush".

    It is, after all, the issues that make Kerry not Bush. Simply compare Kerry and Bush on the war in Iraq, tax cuts & the deficit, the environment, women's rights & civil rights, on the role of religion in government, on science, on the role of the U.N. and our allies -- these two candidates are miles apart.

    I believe Bush sees America as divided between believers and non-believers. Believers are blessed by God with wealth and power -- this is Bush's constituency.

    I believe Kerry will be a better President than Bush not only because he lacks the agenda of Bush II, but because as a career politician, Kerry understands what it takes to accomplish political goals. The sum total of Bush II's political experience, after all, was one and a half terms as governor of Texas. Last night's press conference should point out to all that as a politician, Bush is a lightweight.

    The Bush camp wants to paint Kerry with the liberal brush. I see Kerry as more in the Clinton mold than the Barbara Boxer, Barney Frank mold. But it doesn't matter -- those who would never consider voting for a "liberal" will not vote for Kerry, just as those who would never note for a "conservative" will not vote for Bush. The fight is among everyone else.

    [Want an example of the divide in America? Ask two simple questions: do you believe in evolution? and do you approve of prayer in school? Bush's views would have been considered radical in the past. But now, we simple say that they are part of the conservative agenda. Kerry's views on these two cultural issues used to be considered mainstream, but are now considered by many to be too liberal.]
     
  4. wordmunger macrumors 603

    wordmunger

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    North Carolina
    #4
    Sure, voting for Kerry. I'm pretty moderate. Ideally I think we'd have a democratic president and a republican congress. Bush's views on social issues are way too conservative to me. When you have a republican pres. and a democratic congress (or even a nearly split congress, as we have now), you inevitably get huge deficits. I hate that. If you have a democratic president and congress, taxes go through the roof. That's why a democratic president and a republican congress is the perfect combo.
     
  5. Taft macrumors 65816

    Taft

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    #5
    Isn't it odd, though. On the first point, even in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence to back it up, some people still believe it shouldn't be taught in school. I talked to a temp who was filling in for our office administrative assistant, and when I told her that evolution was fact, she replied, "That isn't waht I've been taught."

    It just amazes me that some people, without looking at all the evidence, would be willing to diverge so fundamentally with science and reason. It seems to me to be such a huge step backwards in terms of forwarding society as a whole. If people are willing to abandon this science, what other proven principles and ideals would they be willing to put by the wayside?

    And, as a side note, I don't see any reason why evolution should be held as "incompatible" with the idea of creation by God. Even most religious institutions maintain that the "seven days" referred to in the Bible might not be intended literally.

    This trend truly disturbs me. It puts a vision in my head of how close we are to the days of the hanging witches, persecuting alleged communists and pushing blacks to the back of the bus. I mean, Joe McCarthy is this nut's idol. How far can we be?

    Taft
     
  6. Krizoitz macrumors 6502a

    Krizoitz

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    #6
    As the article you link to points out the problem is what people mean when they use the word "evolution". That biological change occurs over time is an observable phenomenon, and as far as can ever be known in science appears to be true. That we all started out as some sort of primoridial goo and that we evolved into what we are today is not, however, provable. While the Theory of Evolution does explain many things, and does have evidence to support it, it still remains a theory. While there is supporting evidence as I ahve said, there are also a lot of unanswered questions regarding evolutionary theory. Right now it appears to be the most accurate model, but that may not always be the case. Copernicus' model of the solar system with a geo-centric view did explain the motion of the planets and the sun to a good degree. While it was later replaced by the simpler and as far as we can tell more accurate Galilean model, it was supported by evidence.

    Evolution may very well have been how life as we know it arose on this planet. Or it may not.

    Also the important thing to realize about those whose religious views seem to be at odds with evolution is that, to them, not everything can be explained by science. Science for them stems from God, not the other way around, and as far as they know God set up the system and may have done so as a test of faith. Its not that they are ignorant so much as the scientific evidence is less relevant in their lives than the religious. Frankly I don't think its as big a deal as people make it out to be. Denying that evolution (in terms of fish->mamal->ape->man style evoltion) doesn't really affect ones daily life, so whether you believe it or not doesn't really change much.
     
  7. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #7
    I'm an independent, voting for Kerry this year, without a doubt. I'd like to see a grownup occupying the White House for a change. We also desperately need to restore some degree of balance to the federal government -- total control by one party is a disaster on many levels.

    And yes, certainly some people don't like Kerry for one reason or another, and you can bet the RNC will dredge up every person Kerry has ever crossed during his long career in public life. Big deal. Unless he's literally run somebody over with a steamroller, he's got my vote.
     
  8. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    San Francisco
    #8
    Kerry was not my first choice, but I will gladly vote for and do volunteer work for him in this election. He is an old line New England liberal and that is a huge advance over the neoconservative and right-wing religious fundamentalist that we have in the Oval Office today.
     
  9. Taft macrumors 65816

    Taft

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    #9
    While your arguments are indeed well reasoned and rational (if not totally correct--read the quote following my response to see why), many on the pro-Creation side don't adhere to such high standards. But I agree that whether we came from the primordial soup or from the hand of God is irrelevant to the lives of just about everyone.

    But then why are many in the pro-Creation camp trying to ban evolution from being taught in schools? Why do pro-Creation folks, if it doesn't matter to their daily lives, going on message boards and trying to discredit observed phenominon like evolution causing the differentiation of species?

    Basically what I'm saying is that while science plods along trying to make new discoveries and develop better theories, the Creationists are working to discredit that hard work. That pisses me off.

    Taft



    That humans came from previously existing living forms and that those living forms also came from previous living forms is accepted as fact by the scientific community. The extension of this fact is that we did in fact come originally from single celled organisms. What is in debate is exactly how that process happened. From the page linked earlier:
     
  10. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    Feb 14, 2004
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    #10
    Like vwcruisin, I feel that Kerry is really not liberal enough for me. Nevertheless, I'll be voting for him. He's a helluva lot better than Bush.
     
  11. Krizoitz macrumors 6502a

    Krizoitz

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    Location:
    Wakayama, Japan
    #11
    Getting back to the question at hand, I will vote for Kerry barring some horrible exposure of something that he has done. At least part of my reasoning is that he is not Bush. Frankly I feel like Bush is the single worst President we have EVER had. If you look at his campaign positions and what he actually did its appaling. The lack of evidence of WMD makes me wonder if people are dying in Iraq for his own personal agenda. His skipping out on the National Gaurd thing makes me wonder. And the fact that he seems to believe he has some sort of national mandate when his election was by the slimest margin possible, well I don't like him, don't trust him, and don't want him as President.

    While I can't say I'm jumping for joy at Kerry as president (I am pretty strongly pro-life one of the few conservative issues I agree with), I do feel he is ok. I admire his service in Vietnam and the fact that afterwards he had the courage to stand up for what he saw was a bad war. I also agree at least enough with most of his other positions (other than affirmative action and abortion) that I can live with him as President. I would have prefered a Clark, Edwards, or McCain, but you can't get what you want all the time.
     
  12. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2004
    #12

    Too bad people didn't realize that in 2000...

    I don't pretend to be able to predict the future (although I did have good guesses as to what would happen when Bush was appointed). So just as I had no idea how Clinton would do I don't really have an idea how Kerry will do. So *part* of my reason for voting for him is because I want Bush OUT, now! I do not care for some of his views. The big one being that he is against gay marriage. I think that is ridiculous. But he does not want a constitutional ammedment defining marriage, so that is on his side.
     
  13. amnesiac1984 macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2002
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    Europe
    #13
    But don't you think that is a rather cynical view of God. How can somebody actually sleep at night with the thought of God ****ing with our heads trying to trick us. Burying fossils of dinosaurs to try and throw us off. DO we go to hell because we believed in dinosaurs instead of the bible?

    I think it is very important because it is the issue of how literally we should take the Bible. I don't believe its the word of God, especially as its different Authors contradict each other often. Its far too fallible to be of divine origin, but its a damn good book none the less. And if we are supposed to take the Bible literally then what about revelations? Isn't that meant to happen pretty soon? Isn't the guy with his finger on the detonator the guy who believes it the most (GWB).

    This all sounds very familiar to me, in fact it sounds exactly like what Bill Hicks was complaining about the last time a Bush was in power and the last Iraq war. History repeats itself but i didn't think it was that quick to do it!
     

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