Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,760
10,889
So Apple fixed this undocumented unposted "vulnerability" on my out of warranty 6+ by bricking it. That's not even legal AFAIK.

Note: my 6+ is still original and working fine. It is out of warranty.
No, Apple attempted to fix a security vulnerability by verifying the chain of trust. When your phone failed that check, Apple didn't bother to go through the extra work to create a workaround that maintained the security of the system. Maybe they will one day.
 

dk001

macrumors demi-god
Oct 3, 2014
10,578
14,912
Sage, Lightning, and Mountains
All good questions. But just because you don't know the answer doesn't mean Apple is lying.


1. They're not. See the OP.
2. Why should Apple be required to fix improper third-party repairs?

From the Guardian dated yesterday as part of their series of articles:
“Arjunthebuster” is typical. He/she says they bought their iPhone 6 in January 2015 in Dubai, and dropped it the following month causing a small amount of damage.
They carried on using the phone, but when they tried to install iOS 9 in November “error 53” popped up. “The error hasn’t occurred because I broke my phone (it was working fine for 10 months). I lost all my data because of this error. I don’t want Apple to fix my screen or anything! I just want them to fix the ‘error 53’ so I can use my phone, but they won’t!”

I called my closest Apple Store about getting an Error 53 phone fixed. They said they are not allowed to fix these but I could trade it in. I then asked how do I verify my phone was wiped if I do that. The rep said he would have to check.
The more I read, the more I dig into this, there is a big portion of the puzzle missing and only Apple has the facts. They're not sharing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dave.UK

wookiee2cu

macrumors member
Apr 7, 2009
77
2
Apple shouldn't be able to brick the phone, it's the customers phone not Apple's. Apple can warn of security vulnerabilities and if a 3rd party non-authorized company does repair work on the phone then the warranty on the phone is void... this is common with most goods. Apple would probably lose this one.
 

sualpine

macrumors 6502
May 13, 2013
497
513
So Apple fixed this undocumented unposted "vulnerability" on my out of warranty 6+ by bricking it. That's not even legal AFAIK.

Note: my 6+ is still original and working fine. It is out of warranty.
Once again, post exact statutes when making claims of illegality or GTFO.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AppleGroundZero

N47H

macrumors member
Jul 23, 2010
47
47
Someone doing something that they are not obligated to do when it is brought to their attention seems nice to me. Expecting people to do something for you when they don't have to doesn't seem reasonable to me.


It wasn't satisfactory. It introduced a security hole.

No it didn't, Apple just said this so they can charge you hundreds of your local currency.

Absolutely no-one, including Apple has yet to highlight a valid reason to backup the security claims. Apple has two step verification that is required to prevent a Touch ID even being used in passcode and passwords, if this isn't already satisfactory then Touch ID should be disabled on all iPhones as it's clearly a security risk for anyone with a Touch ID sensor, regardless of being repaired or not.

Read the iOS 9 security PDF hosted on the Apple site, the Security Enclave section as good as says that the sensor couldn't circumvent the Touch ID requirements because it is the enclave that does the deciphering and verification, these sensors just send data to the enclave for it to give a thumbs up or thumbs down to.
 

bruinsrme

macrumors 604
Oct 26, 2008
7,174
3,036
You just keep speculating and saying they should be able to do things. You have zero clue about how deeply integrated that system is. Touch ID is connected to the display, and hundreds of thousands of lines of code . You are just speculating that it can be both secure and easy

So apple isn't smart enough to write a few lines of code to turn off the unlock, Apple Pay, and iTunes purchase features of the Touch ID but smart enough to brick the phone?
 

dk001

macrumors demi-god
Oct 3, 2014
10,578
14,912
Sage, Lightning, and Mountains
It may work fine on IOS 8, but on IOS 9 the requirements were changed from what I can gather? Then what is this pairing that is talked about?

There is something missing and we are not getting the relevant facts. This so far as I have found is iOS9 on the 6/6+ and 6S/6S+ only. Considering I can use Apple Pay at a register with my Mini 4 this is making no sense.
 

AppleGroundZero

macrumors newbie
Feb 9, 2016
13
9
Oregon
So apple isn't smart enough to write a few lines of code to turn off the unlock, Apple Pay, and iTunes purchase features of the Touch ID but smart enough to brick the phone?

If it were as simple as a few lines of code this would not be an issue , cryptoprahy is not as simple as writing a few lines of code , if it were security risk would not exist.

They would have to re write the entire secure enclave code on the co processor to allow these "Few lines of code" to even process.

And your carrier is quite capable of bricking your phone as easily as apple is.
 
  • Like
Reactions: You are the One

dk001

macrumors demi-god
Oct 3, 2014
10,578
14,912
Sage, Lightning, and Mountains
https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf

This might give some extra insight into how the security system works from a more technical standpoint , it does not completely address the question at hand but if anyone wanted more knowledge on it , this will give it.

Appreciate it. Troubling is the behavior attributed to error 53 is not listed at all. In most cases it is the "connect to iTunes" path. Thanks for the doc though ;)
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,760
10,889
No it didn't, Apple just said this so they can charge you hundreds of your local currency.
That's complete speculation with nothing to back it up.

Absolutely no-one, including Apple has yet to highlight a valid reason to backup the security claims. Apple has two step verification that is required to prevent a Touch ID even being used in passcode and passwords, if this isn't already satisfactory then Touch ID should be disabled on all iPhones as it's clearly a security risk for anyone with a Touch ID sensor, regardless of being repaired or not.

Read the iOS 9 security PDF hosted on the Apple site, the Security Enclave section as good as says that the sensor couldn't circumvent the Touch ID requirements because it is the enclave that does the deciphering and verification, these sensors just send data to the enclave for it to give a thumbs up or thumbs down to.
Again, just because you don't understand the security implications doesn't mean Apple is lying.

From the OP:
"We protect fingerprint data using a secure enclave, which is uniquely paired to the touch ID sensor. When iPhone is serviced by an authorised Apple service provider or Apple retail store for changes that affect the touch ID sensor, the pairing is re-validated. This check ensures the device and the iOS features related to touch ID remain secure. Without this unique pairing, a malicious touch ID sensor could be substituted, thereby gaining access to the secure enclave."
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,760
10,889
That's the problem, there was a "what if". The actual how this could be accomplished never has been answered. Not in the OP, Apple site, nor any other document I could find. No one is saying "how".
Wait, you expect Apple to detail how to exploit a vulnerability? :confused: Can you seriously not imagine any way that a malicious sensor could affect the security of the phone?
 

garylapointe

macrumors 68000
Feb 19, 2006
1,886
1,245
Dearborn (Detroit), MI, USA
That blog says:
"Error 53 is the result of the Secure Enclave, where fingerprint data is kept, failing to pair with the Touch ID sensor, where fingerprint data is captured. A malicious Touch ID sensor could steal an iPhone owner’s fingerprints. It could unlock the iPhone without its owner’s consent. And it could make purchases using Apple Pay without the owner’s permission."

How could the Touch ID sensor make purchases on its own? Or is he trying to claim that someone could stick a spy sensor in your iPhone, say while you sleep, then later steal your phone and make purchases by triggering the spy sensor to re-use the last working fingerprint?

I didn't even think of it (process it) that way, use the old fingerprint sensor for something malicious.


That's an incredibly remote possibility. Seriously. It would be so much easier and more likely to steal a print from a glass you've touched and make a fake fingerprint to unlock the phone. And yet few people worry about that.

I agree, I've said/thought that from the beginning there have got to be better ways to get copies of people's fingerprints.

BUT Apple has to deal with the possibility. IF it happens, no matter how remote, it's would be headline news because it's Apple and they say they like things secure/private.

Looks at what's happening with this story, t's becoming a story because this is breaking because they aren't programmed/paired/authenticating properly because Apple is being overly secure with this. (And the phones are locking!)

Gary
 

dk001

macrumors demi-god
Oct 3, 2014
10,578
14,912
Sage, Lightning, and Mountains
Once again, post exact statutes when making claims of illegality or GTFO.

For you I will try to find the specific statutes/laws/codes. I do know this is factual - sat through a day long session by my companies legal department where one of the topics was on what they can / cannot do regarding BYOD and company data. What were our vs. the companies rights and responsibilities. Except in very specific documented cases, personal data cannot be wiped, only company data. in no case was it allowed to permanently lock the device.
Company preferred device - iPhone

Intentional bricking was noted as being against the law. I'll get back to you.
 

garylapointe

macrumors 68000
Feb 19, 2006
1,886
1,245
Dearborn (Detroit), MI, USA
People keep saying this, but don't explain what the "right way" is.

That's the repair person's job to know (or find out) the right way.
They shouldn't be advertising if they don't know how to do it the right way. Regardless of weather Apple makes this info available.

Even IF Apple is breaking the law (as several suggest here [not me!]) in not letting things work, these repair people aren't doing it the way it needs to be done...

Gary
 

LovingTeddy

Suspended
Oct 12, 2015
1,848
2,153
Canada
didn't even think of it (process it) that way, use the old fingerprint sensor for something malicious.

How could someone use old fingerprint sensor for something malicious? The TouchID sensor does not store your fingerprint data. Everything is stored inside SE.

The old sensor is just a sensor, it is useless for hackers. If someone wants your fingerprint, they may have better chance to take from your phone case, becuase your fingerprint is all over the place on the phone.
 

MH01

Suspended
Feb 11, 2008
12,107
9,297
On the other hand if it's a more sensitive part that might control a lot of the electronics in the car that has some particular programming to go with it perhaps it might be the case that only the manfacturer version of that past with manufacturer programming would be valid and other replacements of it would render the electronics in the car (which basically means the car itself) inoperable.

Like the ECU? Which can be reprogrammed or replaced ? Nah, car analogies do not work , in the car tunning world, the ECU is replaced or piggybacked, and the car actually gains better performance.

A replacement ECU will effect your warranty , that is all.
[doublepost=1455057650][/doublepost]
Thats not a relevent comparison, in the case of iPhones, people have had the parts replaced and happily used them for months, and apple have updated them to not work, after the repairs have taken place.

If they wanted to implement this, it needed to be done at the time they were released and they needed to tell people about it.

Assumption was that the car would receive OTA update resulting it not working one day. Like the iPhone did, hence the comparison .
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dave.UK

C DM

macrumors Sandy Bridge
Oct 17, 2011
51,390
19,458
Like the ECU? Which can be reprogrammed or replaced ? Nah, car analogies do not work , in the car tunning world, the ECU is replaced or piggybacked, and the car actually gains better performance.

A replacement ECU will effect your warranty , that is all.
That's one example, but in today's world with cars having much more in them with automated braking and lane departure avoidance and all that kind of stuff seems like there's quite a bit to keep being secure and away from hacking (didn't GM just have a recall in relation to some of their vehicles being susceptible to hacking to the point of someone taking over the vehicle in various ways?).
 

dk001

macrumors demi-god
Oct 3, 2014
10,578
14,912
Sage, Lightning, and Mountains
Wait, you expect Apple to detail how to exploit a vulnerability? :confused: Can you seriously not imagine any way that a malicious sensor could affect the security of the phone?

Then have them come out and say "we have discovered a vulnerability and..." and if so why aren't other TouchID devices affected. There are pieces missing and to firmly believe it is in our best interest to have our devices bricked (never have seen that before) is ludicrous. If it is so "serious", tell people and encourage them to hit Apple approved repair sites to correct any repairs.

Bricking is technically ransomeware done physical.

Side note: I had to learn about biometric security. I cannot visualize a realistic workaround / hack.
 

Recognition

macrumors 6502a
Jun 27, 2013
596
673
Wait, you expect Apple to detail how to exploit a vulnerability? :confused: Can you seriously not imagine any way that a malicious sensor could affect the security of the phone?
I think you're wasting you're time with him Baldi! He clearly refuses to try and understand what 'could' happen!
I can't believe Rhondik wants Apple to explain how to maliciously hack the Touch ID sensor and gain access to the secure enclave!
 

applezulu

macrumors 6502
Apr 24, 2015
308
331
That is a huge and unsupported logical leap. There is no proof that this is true. I agree it would be a critical breach in security - which is why it's a good thing it doesn't work this way. Swapping touchid sensors does not also swap the memorized fingerprints.

Even if you're using OEM parts, if you separate the sensor from the secure data storage component, that breaks the security chain and is effectively "tampering." Once you break that connection, you've breached the security encalve of the TouchID device, and all bets are off. Allowing unknown parties to disconnect and re-connect sensors opens up the possibility of someone being able to capture or interfere with the data between those parts. (Put another way, if keeping your job as an air-traffic controller means you have to pass a drug test, you nor the FAA are going to shrug it off if someone unauthorized breaks the seal on your urine sample to swap out the lid for another lid. Even if that unauthorized person was just innocently putting on a newer OEM lid, there's no way to be sure he didn't sprinkle in a few grains of oxy-something, swap out your THC-saturated pee for a clean sample, or just sneeze into the jar. A broken chain-of-custody is a broken chain-of-custody.)

So... replacing the entire TouchID chain of components would be the only way for a third party to swap out these parts for new ones without breaking the security chain internal to the TouchID 'enclave.' But then, even if the new parts were all OEM, that just creates the scenario I noted previously, enabling me to steal your phone, swap out your TouchID components for mine, and use my fingerprint to gain access to the contents of your phone.

So to prevent that scenario, the TouchID sensor and data storage component enclave have to be securely chained to the phone's other components. This means that maintaining the integrity of the fingerprint security system requires maintaining a secure and uninterrupted data chain-of-custody from the surface of the sensor all the way to the controller board of the phone. If someone not authorized by Apple breaks that chain anywhere, they invalidate the security of the device. That invalidation doesn't require proof of actual nefarious action on the part of the unauthorized repair shop. It only requires that a policy of allowing data chain-of-custody to be broken opens up the (even remote) possibility that someone somewhere could exploit that vulnerability for nefarious purposes.

Any given individual user might not care about that, but Apple has to.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.