Lawyer Says Guantanamo Detainees Tortured

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Pinto, Oct 9, 2003.

  1. Pinto macrumors newbie

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    #1
    link

    No Judge, Jury or trial. Lets here it for the USA. The beacon for freedom and democracy.

    (please note the heavy sarcasm in my voice)
     
  2. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #2
    ""One of the detainees had described being taken out and tied to a post and having rubber bullets fired at them. They were being made to kneel cruciform in the sun until they collapsed," he said."

    Yeah, and an ambassador from Mars landed on the lawn of the White House.

    Before this doofus was a lawyer, he wrote for the "Star".

    'Rat
     
  3. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #3
    Sounds like that "liberal media" is acting up again!:D

    How dare they accuse the Bush administration of impropriety? That is the province of liberals for pete's sake.
     
  4. patrick0brien macrumors 68040

    patrick0brien

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    #4
    -Pinto

    I won't rule out that torture could have happened there in some small form, but I find it interesting that this lawyer is the one who reported it, and not the Red Cross or U.N. observers.

    This makes this story suspect to me.
     
  5. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #5
    where'd you find that?
     
  6. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #6
    I'm skeptical too. But I don't see how anyone can say one way or the other what happens in there. It's locked up pretty tight. The government gets the benefit of the doubt, but must be held accountable for any abuse.
     
  7. Pinto thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #7
    Thanks to the veil of secrecy surrounding the base, there is no way of proving is disproving these statements.

    If the Army has nothing to hide, why are they hiding?
     
  8. patrick0brien macrumors 68040

    patrick0brien

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    -Pinto

    Well, about that, it's an Army base, and one located in "hostile territory".

    Which makes it an ideal reason to locate persons like these there.
     
  9. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #9
    Why on earth should this government get the benefit of the doubt? This whole detention without trial thing is an affront to the standards your government and the American people theoretically espouse. The US Army is trampling on the human rights of all the detainees in the manner of a "tinpot dictatorship". Stop defending the indefensible. No evidence has been offered to establish the guilt of any of those held, no charges have been brought, a highly questionable definition has been applied which is meaningless in law in order to justify this total travesty of due process.
     
  10. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #10
    zim, such BS requires a vivid imagination. Sometimes such garbage elicits a wee tad of sarcasm from me. :D

    skunk, the great majority of these Gitmo jailbirds were caught with guns, shooting at our guys. What more evidence is needed? They're lucky they weren't DRT, instead of taken prisoner.

    'Rat
     
  11. Pinto thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #11
    DRT?

    If you mean dead, then I would say that most of them would have preferred death to what has happened to them since.

    Lucky they're in "Gitmo"? With such luck they should all go out and buy lottery tickets, eh.

    Jailbirds or Prisoners of War?
     
  12. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #12
    You know that, do you? Where's the evidence? Certainly none has been offered. Have you seen any testimony? And "your guys" were "enemy combatants" in a foreign country. What's wrong with shooting at them anyway? You cannot seriously defend this process.
     
  13. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #13
    the guardian has this account of an iraqi-born UK citizen who was interrogated and threatened w/ torture.
     
  14. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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    #14
    I have no idea about the validity of this guys claims, but I do have serious questions about the legal status of these men. Take a look at what the Red Cross says on the subject:

    link
     
  15. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #15
    skunk, reporters from all over the world were in Afghanistan. From their reports, Limey as well as Continental and/or US, I believe the reports that the great majority of these characters were taken prisoner by our forces, mostly after firefights.

    DRT = Dead Right There.

    According to articles in Time Magazine, etc, the prisoners were deloused and given medical treatment as needed for their various pre-existing problems. They were housed more comfortably at first, from what I've read, until they started the efforts to escape and/or assault the guards.

    The guards have apparently been pretty much self-controlled as to their own behavior; Westerners, particularly younger men, do not take kindly to being spat upon.

    The prisoners are allowed to follow their religion. Their diet is as appropriate to their culture, insofar as is feasible.

    I compare the treatment to what my cousins got in Santo Tomas; some friends had in Nazi Stalags, and some friends/acquaintances in the Hanoi Hilton.

    All this "evil, bad-nasty U.S." nattering is worth listening to about like heeding the advice of kindergardners...

    Don't spit into the wind; don't step on Superman's cape, and don't get the US public POed by such things as 9/11. The Taliban found this out, the hard way.

    'Rat
     
  16. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #16
    Hey, back off a little. I'm on your side here, but I'm not ready to accuse the US government of torture without proof. I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm not saying it did. I'm saying we don't know the details yet. I am concerned, because unlike 'Rat, I have little faith that our young men are able to restrain themselves from roughing up the prisoners, espescially after being spit upon. I think frustration may manifest itself as violence upon a helpless target when the prisoners hate you and your superiors want results. The possibility is definetly there for abuse, but whether there is a systematic program of physical torture to extract information, I can't say. If torture is condoned by high-ranking officials in secret, heads should roll.
     
  17. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #17
    as a citizen, how can i be sure that the personnel held in cuba are members of the taliban?
     
  18. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #18
    "If torture is condoned by high-ranking officials in secret, heads should roll."

    I danged sure agree with that. I just don't believe it's happening.

    zim: There was beaucoup TV coverage of the transfer of prisoners from Afghanistan to Gitmo. And, many reports and photos in such as Time magazine. I understand that others who have been arrested by the military or given to our military by other governments as alleged Talibaners have been taken there after the first influx. Beyond that, I'm like anybody else in not knowing...

    'Rat
     
  19. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #19
    I don't either. But I am open to evidence of it, if any can be produced.
     
  20. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #20
     
  21. patrick0brien macrumors 68040

    patrick0brien

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    -skunk

    Ok, where's your evidence? You've been very vocal about pointing out others arguments based on hearsay, what opposing argument can you present without doing the same?

    I doubt you can do so, because if you do present actual, corroboratable evidence, you will probably be guilty of treason.

    Those in glass houses...
     
  22. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #22
    It's not up to me to produce evidence. I'm not accusing anybody of anything. I'm just saying that without due process and the rule of law it's all just trial by soundbite. This is no way to run a self-respecting democracy. Without proper procedures being followed, treaties being upheld, conventions being adhered to, what makes the US any better than those it is fighting?
    Set the standards and live by them.
     
  23. vwcruisn macrumors regular

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    #23
    Evidence of what? YOU SHOULD BE PROVIDING THE EVIDENCE! Skunk is stating that these "detentions" are unjust and that no evidence or proof of ANYTHING and no charges have been brought upon them. So before you go asking HIM for proof.. THINK about what he is saying here.. and if anyone here should be coughing up the evidence... id say it should be the US, which they obviously have none of (our we would have heard about it by now.. trust me) ... you obviously dont have any.


    edit... sorry skunk.. you beat me to the post
     
  24. patrick0brien macrumors 68040

    patrick0brien

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    #24
    -skunk

    Republicans are very good about sticking to the letter of the law, sometimes abridging the spirit of the law. But it's the letter that is argued and interpreted.

    In this case, what is happening in Gitmo, no matter how abhorrent, is perfectly legal - this evidence is freely available to you vwcruisn.

    This thread is about wether those law themselves are being stuck to - as out lawyer friend is claiming they are not.
     

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