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Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Sayhey, Nov 20, 2006.
From Walid Jumblatt, leader of Lebanon's Druze community:
so is this what Nasrallah was gunning for all along? knowing that he could prompt an israeli over-reaction to increase support for hezbollah?
I wouldn't say Nasrallah counted on an Israeli over-reaction, but rather he counted on any confrontation with the Israelis to strengthen his hand in Lebanon. It just so happened that Olmert's invasion far exceeded Nasrallah's fondest dreams. Now the Lebanese people are paying the double price of death and destruction courtesy of Israel, followed by the possible death of their foundling democratic government.
It takes a special type of strategic thinkers, seemingly in charge in both Washington and Tel Aviv, to consistently help your worst enemies at every turn through your own inept blunders. With allies like this, who needs enemies. Nasrallah must be besides himself with joy.
Well they just assisinated the cabinet minister. Problem is the religion is intolerant to all others and is being used for murder. Just look at the mideast. The whole region is a mess and the whole region is Muslim. What do you expect with a religion thats so military so bent on revenge and bent on killing. Islam & Intolerance. So the rule of the day in Lebanon seems to be to kill others in high power till we get our way & can then FORCE our mumbo Jumbo on others.
DHM, bear in mind that the "Christian" Phalangists (Fascists) were only too happy to ally themselves with Israel to keep the border area down. And Israel itself is not short of a religion-based agenda used for political ends. You can't lay it all at the feet of Islam.
Perhaps but maybe those still living politicians should practice the same thing the Syrians backed ones are practicing? Just start murdering the otherside. Seems they have a habit of murdering those who oppose Syria,Hezbolla and the religion of hate they practice.
So a Government with a parliamentary majority is "illegitimate" because it doesn't follow the Opposition's policies.
While Pierre Gemayel and the politics of the Kataeb or Phalange Party (named after Francisco Franco's fascist party) are, or in his case were, nothing I would want to recommend, the ruling coalition of Lebanon is much more complex than that, and certainly not a tool of Israel.
The March 14th forces include political parties that stretch from the far-right to the left. These disparate groups united around a future for Lebanon that did not include Syrian troops occupying it. I can't fault them for that. I certainly can't fault them for winning an election and seeking not to have that election's results stolen away from them by Hizbullah's bullying tactics.
Lebanese politics are quite complex. It would do an immense disservice to simplify them to Christian vs. Muslim. Indeed, the Hariri family is Sunni Muslim and Michael Auon is a christian. Yet Auon is a key ally of Hizbullah and Saad Hariri is one of the main leaders of the Lebanese Government. Walid Jumblatt and his Progressive Socialist Party sit in a government coalition with allies they once fought, alongside the PLO, in bitter struggles through the mountain wars and the battles of the refugee camps. No simple religious demarcation can sort all of this out.
I'm quite aware of the US support of the "Cedar Revolution," but I can't endorse a view that these forces, who have had such popular support in reclaiming their nation, are just puppets for either US or Israel's interests (a charge Hizbullah and Syria make more and more frequently.) That doesn't mean that the March 14th forces can't be characterized as wanting to open up Lebanon to foreign investment and orient it toward a future other than Islamic fundamentalism. Given the choices of whom to support, I don't find it hard to agree with many in the West, that normally I have little in common with politically, that the Cedar Revolution was a very positive development for Lebanon. From an outsider's perspective, it seems clear that attempts to force the government's resignation are a huge step backward and a strengthening of the islamic fundamentalist camp. I can't see that as progress.
I'm not criticising Gemayel, just pointing out that DHM's one-sided mantra about the evils of Islam is not entirely balanced...
Its the root of the whole regions problems,Its interesting how so many "christian" leaders that have been murdered all have been anti Syria. Anyone wonder why the pro Syrian guys arent getting murdered?
Since when are debates about this part of the world "balanced," entirely or even in part? Mainly it seems to come down to picking your own favorite Satan and sticking with it, secure in the knowledge that history can always be found to serve your cause.
Might be a nice change.
Drop me a line when it starts.
There is a huge difference between accusing Syria, a nation not ruled by a religious ideology, of killing the leaders of Lebanon who oppose Syrian domination, and accusing an entire religion as being at the root of the killings. Dont Hurt Me, you are just wrong in your sweeping statements about Islam.
There is also a simple misunderstanding of the facts when you imply it is only the "christian leaders" that are being killed. Yes, Gemayel was from the one of the Christian communities in Lebanon, but the former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri was a Sunni Muslim. There have been assassinations and attempted assassinations of Druze leaders, Maronite Christian leaders, Shia and Sunni leaders. For example, last year two leading figures of the Lebanese Left, Samir Kassir (a reporter and a founding member of the Democratic Left Party) and George Hawi (the former leader of the Lebanese Communist Party) were both assassinated - not for their religious backgrounds, but for their political beliefs. Also among the murdered was the publisher and editor of An Nahar, Gebran Tueni. His politics can only be described as "moderate." DHM, what comes through in all of this is a campaign to silence the voices, from all across the political and religious spectrum, of those who wish an end of Syrian domination of Lebanese politics, which has been aided and abetted by some very conservative forces inside of Lebanon. These forces see their road to power through continued ties to Damascus - Michael Auon, Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, and President Emile Lahoud (two Maronite Christians and a Shi'a Muslim) being among the first and foremost of these politicians. This is not a case of Muslims killing Christians.
In fact, this is not in any way a one-sided religious war. Religion plays into, and exacerbates the conflict, but the underlying theme in all of it is the quest for power by clans and families inside of Lebanon, and the consistent involvement of foreign powers, (including Syria, Iran, the US, France, and Israel) in backing one side over the other. What is necessary now is for outside powers to stay out and let the Lebanese deal with their own problems. Not that I've a clue about how to accomplish that seemingly insurmountable feat.
From what I understand the main religion in Syria is Islam, Also Syria still doesnt recognize Lebanon as a seperate state. They still want it since Lebanon use to be part of Syria years ago. All the politicians who were murdered all had 1 thing in common. Anti Syria. Add it up it still points to Syria and or Hezbolla and those guys are Islamic. If it looks like a duck,walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it most likely is a duck.
This murder may have been ordered by Syria. It may have been ordered by Nasrallah. It could have been done by internal Phalange Party rivals. At this point I don't know, but I would suspect Syrian involvement.
But, DHM, the government of Syria is hardly "Islamic." It is ruled by a section of the Baath Party that was a rival to Sadam Hussein's Iraqi version. Your lumping Syria and Hizbullah in together as both Islamic is much like the Bush administration's "axis of evil." To do this kind of shoddy analysis and blame all problems on Islam is to miss the entire point of the last few years. Wake up, DHM, and look beyond the "duck" cliches.
btw, DHM, if you want a serious source of information on Syria, I would recommend Joshua Landis' site, SyriaComment.com.
I don't know, usually I think it's more simple than that. Someone will slam Islam and say it's all their fault. Then someone will say Israel, and the US for that matter, are no better at times. Often making things worse. Then they get called terrorist lovers, and antisemitic (my favorite, considering some of us are Jewish), and all sorts of other things. Eventually, things get very heated, and hopefully someone horrible gets banned. Or nothing happens and we start making bad puns to deal with the fact that the world is going to Hell.
Is it me, or are both sides just making things worse and helping to get the completely wrong people in power.
Yes. We should just stick to the puns.