Macs and Politics v.3

Discussion in 'Community' started by Backtothemac, Jun 21, 2002.

  1. Backtothemac macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #1
    Ok, This had to be started due to a thread that had been recently hijacked. Lets keep it on the topic discussed, and not get into side tracks. The last one of these went about 500 posts, so it should have its own avatar.

    So. Bring it on. And hold on for the ride.

    And groovebuster.

    I have a BA in Political Science with an emphsis in Terrorism and Counter Terror. Also a BA in History with an emphsis in military history. I am 6 hours short of a Masters in Political Science. I have worked for the CIA, and have done several interships. Bring it my friend. Bring it ;)
     
  2. Rower_CPU Moderator emeritus

    Rower_CPU

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    #2
    I'll get in on this one early, since I sat out for v.2.:D

    So what is the board turning into: US vs The World?

    What's the deal, people?

    My credentials: BA French w/ Spanish minor, 7 years living as a minority in one of the world's most diverse places, Hawai'i
     
  3. groovebuster macrumors 65816

    groovebuster

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    #3
    Re: Macs and Politics v.3

    Nice try to impress me, but education doesn't say anything. I met a lot of educated people (not just your cute BAs) with just sh*t in their heads. If education would always lead to the same opinion, why educated people don't have all the same opinion? ;)

    So I don't care about your education. I only care about arguments a person is bringing. So I hope you don't mind that I don't throw in my education. This is not a competition who has the biggest...

    But actually, maybe I feel a little bit anyway to discuss some stuff here. And you could make a good start be explaining why you think that the US are the best country in the world.

    And please, only facts and not just "because". i had that too often in discussions like that. :)

    So... go ahed!

    groovebuster
     
  4. Rower_CPU Moderator emeritus

    Rower_CPU

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    #4
    We only mention our education to point out that we are not "ignorant Americans" who have no multicultural experience. It gives you an idea where we are coming from. It's usually a good idea when entering into a debate to make these kind of explanatory statements.

    Your unwillingness to do likewise makes it dificult for us to find a common ground on which to discuss things.

    Actually you were already asked something similar in the other thread, so I think it's your turn:
     
  5. Backtothemac thread starter macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #5
    Re: Re: Macs and Politics v.3

    You miss the point completely. I am not saying that the people here are better, although the french... Well, I am not going there. Look, I think that this is the greatest country on the planet because of our constitution. The structure of the governmnet, the power of the people. That is what makes this country so great. We are, and always have been very protective of out alies. We have stood by the name of freedom and liberty for over 200 years. We have stood for right for 200 years.

    Now, my education was given because of the ignorant American statements is the other thread. That is like saying those damn war mongers in Germany. That is not true at all. Stereotypes are not good to have. You questioned my intelligence, I gave you an answer.

    How Bout that Rower. The twin towers are in the house!
     
  6. groovebuster macrumors 65816

    groovebuster

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    #6
    I don't agree on that. I don't see what the education has to do with a common ground for a discussion. Neither it can be evaluated if it is true, nor it has any impact on the discussion. Or shall we also discuss if an opinion is worth more than another one just because someone is a professor and the other one has "just" a bachelor? I think that doesn't matter, right?

    I think the fact that my english isn't too bad for someone whose mothertongue is german is already showing that I can't be uneducated.

    The only thing that you need to know is, that I live in Germayn, that I am early 30's (wife&kid) and that I am an academic (studied at university).

    The first problem we should discuss is the definition of "the best". What makes something the best? Is it possible at all to be objective about it? If we can find commono ground on that we can start to discuss.

    groovebuster
     
  7. jelloshotsrule macrumors G3

    jelloshotsrule

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    #7
    here's my response i initially posted in the yankees thread, then i saw this.

    right, so people have moved from america to europe, asia and all over. just as tons of people have moved from europe, asia, and all over to america. you seem to forget that a great amount of our population has not been here all too long. where do you think they come from? since you're so big on population and percentage of populations when comparing.... you think a higher percentage of americans move elsewhere than other people moving to america? that's just off.

    i don't by any means think that america is the greatest country in the world. i think that the netherlands and germany have a great way of life. that said, i don't know much about their governments, which could be good or bad. there are plenty of people, americans, germans, brits, french, etc that think their country is the "best". that's how people are. you don't talk as though you are unbiased by the way, you talk like a mad/crazy german who just doesn't like americans.

    and i agree that plenty of people visit america and don't want to live here. then again, plenty of americans visit elsewhere and don't move there either. again, that's how it goes. you don't visit a place planning to move there unless there's a much bigger reason.

    i do also think that america is the most influential country in the world. for better or for worse. american companies occupy the whole world, as do music, movies etc.

    and for your comments about sports... that's just a joke. germany had one more medal than the us in the olympics? ok. who cares? i don't. i'm sure i could find something the us has won or done better lately and then you could find something germany has done better lately etc etc.

    your own arguments are just as bad as the people you are arguing against. so next time, just don't be so hypocritical.

    much calmer, more realistic comments made by other europeans here have been much more insightful. rather than "your athletes all pop pills and we won more medals per capita" blah blah blah

    might want to try a different approach.
     
  8. Rower_CPU Moderator emeritus

    Rower_CPU

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    #8
    Fine, keep your secrets, it doesn't matter. You're not meeting us halfway here. It's not about education level, but educational/experience background.

    You're right, the "Best" is subjective. Each person defines what their own personal standards are for being the best. Just like we Mac users feel that Macs are the best computers for us to use, 90+% of the world feels different...or do they? If they knew more about Macs don't you think they'd want to "switch"?

    An opinion formed in ignorance is invalid, since it's based on false principles.

    So, what comes next is agreeing on a set of principles.

    Your turn.:)
     
  9. Backtothemac thread starter macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #9
    Well, we are all obviously highly educated, otherwise we would not be here at Macrumors. Point is a common basis has been established. So I ask you groove, what in your opinion is the *best* governmnet that is out there? Not which country has the best sports, etc. But government?
     
  10. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #10
    Oh yeah, I'm salivating. A macs and politics v. 3 with a juicy topic like this...

    Actually, this is one of those topics that has things that can be measured and used as "proof" for both sides of the argument, as well as things to point to that are purely opinion.

    In other words, pointing to medals at the olympics vs. I like one country versus another. One is quantifiable, the other is merely opinion.

    That being said, it looks to me that there are two sides to this argument.

    One side stands up and says we believe that the US is the best country. The other side says no, it is not.

    Ok, again, I ask you. What is? Saying you're wrong without saying what is right is juvinile. Please, I ask you, take a side and give us a reason as to why you're taking that side. That way I can trash your arguments. Just bring it.

    Oh, and on education. It makes a difference, if for no other reason than the more highly educated you are, the more you have been "taught" to think. Uneducated people are far more likely to blindly accept a statement as fact when it should be questioned.

    I have to address the only substantive point that was made by our German friend. Sure, you're bi-lingual. Ok, yippie! American's could easily learn other languages, but why? Why would we need to? (Another little piece of evidence whowing which country is most influential)

    I'm getting frustrated with your "America isn't the best country" statements. Maybe it isn't, but if you don't think it is, tell us which country you think is best so we can have an intelligent discussion regarding the merits of our respective positions.

    Otherwise, this thread will likely just end before it ever gets interesting.
     
  11. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #11
    He's not going to take a side. He just wants to try to bash the States.
     
  12. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #12
    For some reason WWII comes to mind, and I can't quite figure out why... :confused:
     
  13. Backtothemac thread starter macrumors 601

    Backtothemac

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    #13
    Not only that but if it wasn't for us they would be one of the smaller provinces in the friggin Russian empire.
     
  14. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #14
    Yeah, and how much of West Germany's economy was because we had to have such a large presence over there? I mean, we weren't in east Germany and it is like a Ghetto, while everywhere we were and had influence, things blossomed.

    Strange. Co-inkydink?
     
  15. iH8Quark macrumors 6502

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    #15
    Let's not toot our own horn. By and large there is a feeling outsie of the US of contempt for American foreign and / or trade policy. We're hardly popular. We're not the savior of the world, as we think we are. We do some unspeakably terrible and underhanded things all over the world. On the UN's short list of examples of international terrorism includes two acts by the US (e.g. our bombing of Libya in the 80's). We just don't hear about it because our media is controlled by a small faction of ethnocentrics.

    Our unflinching support of Israel (which is the international bone of contention with the US) has nothing to do with international political gain, and has everything to do with the fact that the jewish population controls the majority of the money and media in this country. That's not antisemitic, it's just truthful. Don't even bother arguing with me on this one.

    Also, if you ask most people outside of the US what they think of it, they will almost invariably tell you it's a very dangerous place; or say something to the effect of "it's very violent". And they're right. We are a darwinistic culture and guns are everywhere. That's just my 2 cents, though.

    Which brings me to the reason why I'm writing. Does anyone else think that we should NOT have a Dept. of homeland security? After all isn't that the job of the NSA (who already failed at their task once). Why make it even more complicated? Especially if the CIA and FBI have no representation in it.
     
  16. groovebuster macrumors 65816

    groovebuster

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    #16
    "right, so people have moved from america to europe, asia and all over. just as tons of people have moved from europe, asia, and all over to america. you seem to forget that a great amount of our population has not been here all too long. where do you think they come from? since you're so big on population and percentage of populations when comparing.... you think a higher percentage of americans move elsewhere than other people moving to america? that's just off."

    Neither I never talked about percentages, nor did I say that more people americans move out of the US than immigrants are coming in. Can you please enlight me, why you twist my words?

    "i don't by any means think that america is the greatest country in the world. i think that the netherlands and germany have a great way of life. that said, i don't know much about their governments, which could be good or bad. there are plenty of people, americans, germans, brits, french, etc that think their country is the "best". that's how people are. you don't talk as though you are unbiased by the way, you talk like a mad/crazy german who just doesn't like americans."

    Well, then it is good for you that you don't think that narrow-minded. But if you check the other Thread carefully again you'll find that I referred to some people who claimed the US to be the best country in the world in everything. Considering that my statements appears in adifferent light, don't you think?

    "and i agree that plenty of people visit america and don't want to live here. then again, plenty of americans visit elsewhere and don't move there either. again, that's how it goes. you don't visit a place planning to move there unless there's a much bigger reason."

    I didn't say anything different from that! There is no point to discuss that.

    "i do also think that america is the most influential country in the world. for better or for worse. american companies occupy the whole world, as do music, movies etc."

    Yup, most influental on some things. And in some cases it's not for good. You could call it economical imperialism.

    "and for your comments about sports... that's just a joke."

    Exactly... it was a joke! If you would have noticed all the little ;) and :D dudes you could have seen that I was sarcastic and not serious about it.

    "germany had one more medal than the us in the olympics? ok. who cares?"

    Interesting. At first people are telling you that the US are the best and win the most medals in the Olympics because the are so superior and when you show them that they are not they say "whatever, I don't care".

    Hmmm... kinda strange isn't it?

    "i don't. i'm sure i could find something the us has won or done better lately and then you could find something germany has done better lately etc etc."

    That was exactly my point. Maybe you really should have read my postings more carefully.

    "your own arguments are just as bad as the people you are arguing against. so next time, just don't be so hypocritical.

    much calmer, more realistic comments made by other europeans here have been much more insightful. rather than "your athletes all pop pills and we won more medals per capita" blah blah blah

    might want to try a different approach."

    Calm down! ... read AND understand what other people wrote next time, because otherwise that "hypocritical" statement is firing back on you...

    Greetings,

    groovebuster
     
  17. jelloshotsrule macrumors G3

    jelloshotsrule

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    #17
    i agree with you ih8quark....

    that said, i don't agree with groovebuster's attack of america based (at the start) on some childish sports comments.


    that's the main reason i got involved.

    as i said, we aren't the best country. though along those lines, i don't think there is one. every place has its flaws. just as every person does.

    oh well. i'll let these guys duke it out with groove some more.. though he won't realize he's just egging it on with his non insightful retorts.
     
  18. groovebuster macrumors 65816

    groovebuster

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    #18
    That statement is exactly what kills any constructive discussion!

    Thanks a lot! Very respectful...

    groovebuster
     
  19. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #19
    Do you honestly think the US only, and I mean ONLY, supports Isreal because of some lobbiests and money? You mean to say that if they didn't have lobbiests and money, we'd support the muslim countries in committing genocide? Oh come on.

    Isreal is a small country, with a small population, surrounded by people who hate them. We're talking about America here. We stand up for the people getting picked on, not the bully.
     
  20. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #20
    I'm trying to point out that you have done nothing but bash the US, without giving us your opinion on what you do think is the best country. If you think Bosnia is the best country, we'd at least have something to compare to.

    All i want from you is your opinion on what you think is the best country, rather than you merely saying you disagree with our opinion.

    That IS constructive discussion.

    As for respectful, I want to have a civilized discussion with you, but you insist on merely saying the US is bad without more.
     
  21. Rower_CPU Moderator emeritus

    Rower_CPU

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    #21
    You're ignoring my question, any reason why?

    What are the principles/standards that a country should be based on to qulaify as the "best"?

    mcrain said what he did because you keep avoiding questions, which makes it seem like you're not really after discussion, but just insulting America to get a reaction out of us.
     
  22. groovebuster macrumors 65816

    groovebuster

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    #22
    Thanks. I couldn't have said it better. Takes a lot of work from me, coz I don't have to write it again myself.

    groovebuster
     
  23. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #23
    Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!
     
  24. jelloshotsrule macrumors G3

    jelloshotsrule

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    #24
    "Neither I never talked about percentages, nor did I say that more people americans move out of the US than immigrants are coming in. Can you please enlight me, why you twist my words?"

    you implied that no one wants to move to america whereas people in europe move around within there, and americans move to europe all the time. the percentages was referencing your comments about using population to as a factor to determine how well a country did in the olympics based on medal count and population. so you didn't say "percentages" you mentioned population and thus referred to a notion that the us's ratio (better word?) of people:medals was poor. but anyways, i don't care about that.

    "Well, then it is good for you that you don't think that narrow-minded. But if you check the other Thread carefully again you'll find that I referred to some people who claimed the US to be the best country in the world in everything. Considering that my statements appears in adifferent light, don't you think?"

    i agree that people claim that. just as some germans think germany is the best etc. what's your point?

    "Yup, most influental on some things. And in some cases it's not for good. You could call it economical imperialism."

    if you want to give it a name, sure. and as i said, it's not always good.

    "Interesting. At first people are telling you that the US are the best and win the most medals in the Olympics because the are so superior and when you show them that they are not they say "whatever, I don't care"."

    hey guess what, you should read what i said. cause in my ONE post on it, i never once said that i think the us is greater than any other country. especially not in sports. i never mentioned sports other than to mention that they don't matter. yet you equate me to the people who are arguing with you over sports. read.

    '"i don't. i'm sure i could find something the us has won or done better lately and then you could find something germany has done better lately etc etc."'

    "That was exactly my point. Maybe you really should have read my postings more carefully."

    i did read them. but you were going back and forth arguing about medals counts and drug use etc etc. just egging it on. if that was your point, state it, and move on.

    "Calm down! ... read AND understand what other people wrote next time, because otherwise that "hypocritical" statement is firing back on you..."

    haha. i read them all actually. you just assume that as an american i can't agree with you so anytime i say something you might have said you see it as attacking you using your own opinions, when in reality, i'm restating them such that i agree with you.

    i agree with you for the most part, that's the thing. but your method of convincing, or even just making valid points is pathetic. ih8quark made much better points in a short post. one post. unlike your many. so if you don't like the dumb "i'm better" banter, don't be a part of it. use your intelligence rather than this petty BS.
     
  25. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #25
    Ok, correct me if I've got this wrong, but you're a German, saying that America is bad because we bombed Libya in the 80's when they were supporting terrorism, we have right to carry and own gun laws, and WE SUPPORT ISRAEL?

    Please, you can't possibly be that ignorent of your countries own past?
     

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