Mad for nothing...

Discussion in 'Community' started by drastik, Jul 17, 2002.

  1. drastik macrumors 6502a

    drastik

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2002
    Location:
    Nashvegas
    #1
    I realize that everyone wanted new powermac's today, but there was zero reason to expect them. All signs point to august. That said, why are so many people flipping out over this Expo?

    Are you angry that an unsubstantiated rumor was proven wrong?

    I feel like the tech is behind, and I hope that it catches up soon, but a lot got announed today. A lot of good, usefull stuff.

    I also feel like the majority of complaints are comming from new members. I like new members, and I don't believe in flaming them for saying silly things, but I do feel that people should be well informed before they fly off the handle.

    So, I guess the question is: Do you feel like Apple owes you something besides all of the free Apps and included hardware on the systems?
     
  2. iGav macrumors G3

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2002
    #2
    I'm not mad at all...... not even really disapointed......... wasn't expecting new PowerMacs today because of the current promotions on pro range...... and every other model has only recently just been upgraded...... the new iMac G4 with widescreen though is cool.... exactly what myself and a couple of others were discussing on the forum a couple of nights ago......

    I was quite impressed with some of the stuff that Apple released and demo'd...... they're obviously working hard on stuff other than new hardware....... and OSX.2 certainly seems like it's going to rock...... as do the new iApps......

    All in all I'm pretty happy.......

    Although I look forward to seeing what Apple release next month under the PowerMac name...... :)
     
  3. Ifeelbloated macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
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    some God forsaken place
    #3
    Well, I still have some pro software to buy and I'm not that concerned with all the stuff. A lot of it was gee-whiz-bang stuff that a casual user won't care about. The professional just wants his applications that he works with to be powerful and stable. So far I've got that. Besides, I buy a new computer every 3 to 4 years so I'll have all that down the road eventually. Hardware and software depreciate in value, my computer fund doesn't.
     
  4. drastik thread starter macrumors 6502a

    drastik

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2002
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    #4
    That is probably one of the most level headed things I have heard all day. Its hard to reason with a 15-year-old, though.
     
  5. eyelikeart Moderator emeritus

    eyelikeart

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2001
    Location:
    Metairie, LA
    #5
    I really don't care about it that much...

    I wasn't expecting anything groundbreaking....and I was impressed with what I saw...

    I realize a lot of u guys want something significant hardware-wise...but u will have to just suck it up and wait...

    next year though...he he he ;)
     
  6. Ifeelbloated macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Location:
    some God forsaken place
    #6
    Being young and being impetuous go hand in hand. I wish I had all the money I lost on PCs back in my pocket. I'd be able to buy two Dual Processor Macs. Plus, all the money I lost on my Chevy IROC-Z-28. I was young and stupid, just wanted a muscle car. Now I know better.
    Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
    I like Apple, I'm sticking with them. They haven't ****ed me over like a lot of things in this world.
    Bill can kiss my ****ing a$$.
     
  7. ShaolinMiddleFinger macrumors 6502a

    ShaolinMiddleFinger

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2001
    #7
    I'm pissed off because I have to pay for my .mac email. Don't try to repost that url because it talks about it and nothings there. Apple better take that off soon or far be it, allow you to convert to free email.
     
  8. blackpeter macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2001
    #8
    Jow and Jane consumer are interested in iMacs and iBooks, iPods and iTunes. These are the products to showcase in the limelight of a MacWorld Expo, not the PowerMacs. We pro-sumers will find out about and buy these machines when they come out, with or without much fanfare. So it behooves Apple to use these big events wisely.

    Or another note, I do hope Apple will wake up and seperate their "free" email service from the rest of the .Mac services. I'd hate to have to return to Hotmail. :eek:
     
  9. Grokgod macrumors 6502a

    Grokgod

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2002
    Location:
    Deep within the heart of madness!
    #9
    In cyber space , you can hear the masses run!

    I heard thousands of people run back to Hotmail.com

    Microsoft must be laughing their A$$ off! LOL

    When jobs said he was going to ream all his loyal users.

    Your intellect is amazing JOBS! NOT!

    YAWN~
     
  10. g4pismo macrumors member

    g4pismo

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2002
    Location:
    Atlanta
    #10
    I also feel like the majority of complaints are comming from new members.

    this would my first post.. I have actually been reading these rumor/mac fourms for many years, I just never contributed until now.. I think a lot of first time posters (or even a couple time posters) have taken a more active role in posting there options instead of just of reading others. We/they may be complaing, but at least now we are active! :D
     
  11. groovebuster macrumors 65816

    groovebuster

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2002
    Location:
    3rd rock from the sun...
    #11
    Re: Mad for nothing...

    Then maybe you could name me some stuff that was shown and that is important for a pro user??? All those things he showed are toys and gadgets for spoiled consumer kids but don't help me in any way to get my daily work done. I want to see solutions for my tool (the computer) that definetely make me work more efficient and therefore make me more competetive in the market.

    10.2 will be probably the first release of MacOS X that deserves to be called a productive operating system. That there is no upgrade path for Users who purchased MacOS X before is plain rediculous. I have two machines running MacOS X. One of the licenses (10.1) was purchased in February. So now I have to shell out 320.-€ again for updating just the OS on both machines to get finally a working/usable Version of MacOS X. That doesn't feel right. And I know that it doesn't as well for a lot of other people.

    And I really can't hear anymore the people saying that if you earn money with your computer those costs are peanuts. Of course it is not the end of the world, but all the stuff adds up. I spend about 10,000.-$ a year just for software licenses. That money has to be brought in first, I can only spend money that I made before. And economy is not that healthy at the moment as everbody knows. I make way less money compared to 18 months ago and it is not only me facing that situation, a lot of my "colleagues" have the same problem. Apple is just sending the wrong signals at the moment.

    And the answer to the question is: YES! There are a lot of faithful Maccies (like me for 14 years now) who made Apple survive through all the years, even when things looked really bad for them. So they owe their long year mac users a lot. Without them Apple would be just history now. But instead of being thankful to them they start to milk them for that loyality now... I don't know what to think about that...

    As I said before in another thread: The reason to stay with Apple comes down more and more to the reason just to avoid to jump on the Windows train.

    But if that is the main motivation left for pro users like me it doesn't take a lot anymore to make us "switch"... at least for a while until Apple is more again than the "Not-Windows-System"... and if they don't survive that, well it's their own fault then. I showed loyality for too long now, always buying Apple products that were outdated, half-finished or sometimes also buggy for a sh*t-load of money.

    Wonna talk about the MacOS <= 9.x??? Since Windows2000 it was a pain in the *ss to work with my Macs in comparison. I had to restart them regularly (about 2-3 times a day) because they crashed, not to mention the lost work and corrupted files. And before I get flamed for being an idiot who doesn't know how to maintain his systems, I did system adminstration for several agencies as a freelancer (I also worked for Apple Germany for a while) and know the Apple hard- and software more than enough. There isn't just anything you can do, when an app is crashing the whole system...

    The switch to MacOS X was a pain the ass as well. Slow OS, problems to run apps in the Classic environment, bad performance of carbonized apps under OS X. (Photoshop e.g. is a snail now, Freehand crashes regularly, ...!)

    Enough is enough... if that doesn't change dramatically in a short time, I'm off! At least for a while. I can't afford it anymore to always hope for the better month after month after month...

    I still hope that they come up with new pro machines next month performing much better than the current line up and being worth the investment. If not... bu-bye for a while! I can have more performant gear for less money somewhere else. Windows will be a pain, but number-crunching and high throughput makes 50% of my work!

    groovebuster
     
  12. drastik thread starter macrumors 6502a

    drastik

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2002
    Location:
    Nashvegas
    #12
    Pro uses

    Well, as a pro user with multiple macs running in what appears to be remote locations with a lot of interactions between the computers, you got a lot.

    Jaguar will affect you greatly. You have iSync, to manage your calanders and schedules with everyone else in your business family (it sound like you work from home in your post) beyond that, you can use iChat's workgroup chat functions to communicat inner office. You can use iSync to manage adress books and keep you gadgets haapy full when out of the office.

    If your network is physically in one place you can use the new software base station for airport conectivity and save yourself three hundred bucks for wifi.

    Even if you don't need these features, a lot of small business do, and it could work on a large scale too, with more than three Macs.

    Oh yeah, and Randevous looks to streamline all your networking. Nothing for the Pro! Just because it has a lower case i in the name doesn't make it useless.

    The whole point of the digital hub is to streamline and easy manage your computing and accessories. This is always good for business, efficency will save and make you more money. As for your systems crashing all the time, I don't know, its not a problem I have, and short of cell imaging and super crunching, I run some CPU intensive stuff on a fairly old system (G4/400, G3Pismo). Maybe Jaguar will fix your crash problem.
     
  13. iH8Quark macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2002
    Location:
    Big Shoulders
    #13
    Where are you guys seeing this info on the included airport base station?
     
  14. drastik thread starter macrumors 6502a

    drastik

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2002
    Location:
    Nashvegas
    #14
    it was in a thread yesterday

    I'll see if I can find it. I remember it comming from an FAQ somewhere, on Jaguar I think.
     
  15. drastik thread starter macrumors 6502a

    drastik

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  16. iH8Quark macrumors 6502

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    Big Shoulders
    #16
    Thanks, dude! :)

    If anyone comes across the info on Apple's site, post da link. Thanks!
     
  17. Grokgod macrumors 6502a

    Grokgod

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2002
    Location:
    Deep within the heart of madness!
    #17
    ~ Groovebuster !

    You are TOTALLY right ON!

    This is the voice of the PRO user that APPLE is spitting on.

    I am a PRO user and all that iAPP CRAP is freakin stupid.

    I don't give a damn about all of that LAMEsumer addons.
    Its BLOATWARE.. I need to get WORK done! !

    I need the OS that I paid for to WORK properly and fast!

    AN extra cost for what I already have paid for in more ways than one.
    I paid for it in TIME AND HASSLES!

    I adopted to OSX right away, I played the classic game.
    I spinned throught the printing crap the cd burning fiasco.
    The mindnumbing SLOW redraws.
    The putrid Photoshop speeds! I have see faster corpses.

    Worse,, I read about LAMEsumers talking nonsense about how we dont need any more POWER, what we have is more than enough.

    I can't stand these subjective Lamesumers that know nothing about POWER and the need for it.

    APPLE has turned its back on the faithful and is running towards the numbers of LAMEsumers that it hopes to reel in with it BORING, PUTRID, silly, Bloatware!

    iChat, how insanely stupid. Jobs claims its the best on the planet.

    Who in the world gives a damn!
    ICQ has had all those abilities for YEARS already.

    TWO OLD men sending each other fuhreakin asininse messages, who give a flying
    F45k!

    We need the OS finished and shipped to us on new powermacs , NOW!

    Others say, hey be patient, its only a month.

    Have you guys lost your ability to refer to real time?
    Its been MONTH after, MONTH after Month after Month after Month....etc

    WHy do you think that APPLE has lost SO many Powerusers to WINTEL?
    They know it!
    Thats why they are trying to woo the LAMEsumer into the fold.

    No one else gives a damn about their crappy old tech and manipulation.

    iAPPs hahahahahahahah ROFLOL Who gives a damn!

    Bloatware at a high cost to all invovled will COST APPLE more than they could ever imagine!

    This may turn out to be the FINAL stupid self defeating act that APPLE has ever done. No powermacs and bloatware from the bloat twins....

    YAWN~
     
  18. sneed macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2002
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    #18
    new member

    As a new member, and a pro user... I am surprised at how angry these posts have been. The computer demand is changing, and Apple is changing with it. I have little use for the iApps, as I had little use for iTools. I mean, if I want a productivity app, I write it, but if Apple does not court the consumer market, and plug up cash leaks, then there will be no Apple.

    Don't you get it?

    Try to think about the big picture.

    Oh, and if X is to slow for you, go back to 9. If you can't do your job, because your mac is too slow, I figure you weren't able to do your job well in the first place. Madness.
     
  19. groovebuster macrumors 65816

    groovebuster

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2002
    Location:
    3rd rock from the sun...
    #19
    Re: new member

    No, you don't get it! We always paid a premium to use Apple stuff! Since about 2 years now we are waiting for Apple to release something competetive for the pros! And everytime it is "oh, well, maybe next month".

    I don't give a **** about the consumer idiots! May Apple take care of them 24/7, but I need MY STUFF and I don' get it!!!!

    Try to think at all!!!

    And you are just an arrogant as*hole! Who are you that you can tell me about how I am doing my job every day!?!?! Maybe the only thing you are doing the whole day on your Quadra 840AV is to type text in Word 5.1! Fine! But I need PERFORMANCE for the sh*t I am doing! Performance that is promised by Apple since almost 2 years now and never really arrived.

    It is not that the Macs are alone in the pro business, you know little boy? It starts to hurt when a colleague with Windows gear needs 30%-60% less time for finishing his jobs, just because the machine has more horse-power than mine! That is a question of staying competetive. And with Macs you are not when it comes down to number-crunching jobs. And those are 50% of my work! So what??? Altivec doesn't pull it anymore, when the whole CPU is clocked less than half compared to the competitors and they use yesterdays memory technology!

    And to switch back to MacOS 9? Reread my first post! It is a pain in the *ss as well, since it is anything but stable!

    Funny what kind of people call themselves a "pro" these days...

    groovebuster
     
  20. sneed macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2002
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    #20
    Re: Re: new member

    Now you're just being mean. :(

    The point is that, unless Apple increases their marketshare, there won't be much point in building pro equipment, because all of the 3rd party apps that pros use will be less and less available. I am not talking about niche products so much, but staples from companies like adobe, macromedia, etc. It doesn't make as much sense to build them for the mac, as it does for windows. We are just too small a part of the market as a whole. Haven't you noticed a slow down in the roll out for mac software? Haven't you heard the rumors of them pulling out? Don't you want pro apps that are developed for the mac, rather for the pc, and ported to mac? What about expansion cards? Accelerators?

    That's why courting consumers is important, especially in a time where institutional sales are in the crapper. The big picture, my european friend, is that Apple has to change it's strategy to survive, and for someone who, like you, has many thousands of dollars invested in his equipment, I rather see a long term future for Apple, than a speed bump today (I'll wait until August thank you very much).

    I don't believe I told you how you were doing your job every day. If my statements spoke to you, however, maybe that should tell you something. "Arrogant as*hole"? I prefer confident as*hole, thank you.

    Point of fact, Apple has made performance enhancements in the last two years.

    Funny. My favorite part of your post so far. Your earlier tantrum over needing your stuff now really put the funny in it.

    So here we come to the meat. Alright, so the guy next to you gets his jobs done 30-60% faster, and has been doing so for, what, two years by your account? Right? As an employer, I care more about your being competetive. If you were 30-60% slower, and that's what I would really care about, I would replace you unless you found a way to keep pace. Now, if you did the job better than the guy sitting next to you, I might take that into consideration, but probably not.

    So, what are your options?

    1. Get a PC - Sure, why not? I wouldn't, but then again I am a little boy.

    2. Bulk up your Mac - this is always my first choice, but it's hard to say, not knowing what you do, whether this would be helpful or not.

    3. Change your work habits - It's funny, but most of the speed improvements I notice over the course of a project comes from how someone works, rather than what they're working on.

    4. Give up - use word 5.1 on a Quadra 840AV

    See what I mean? If only 50% of your work involves number crunching (you are an accountant?) and you are 30-60% slower than the guy next to you, than there is room for improvement. See, the mac works fine for you half the time, and... wait, you crunch numbers, I'll let you work it out.

    Well, that's true.

    I've heard that. Haven't experienced it much, but then again I usually blame the application. In an earlier post (see, I'm listening,) you mention photoshop being slow, and freehand crashing... That is not the case in OS9. If these are what you use, use them in OS9 where they are as snappy as you please.

    I was thinking the same thing. The fact of the matter is that if you are not competetive in your field, and are satisfied with that (in so far as it is your equipment's fault,) than you aren't much of a pro user in my book. Professionals will/do find a way to stay competetive regardless of the brand of computer they own, or they become hobbiests. I remain competetive precisely because I am a pro.
     
  21. groovebuster macrumors 65816

    groovebuster

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2002
    Location:
    3rd rock from the sun...
    #21
    Re: Re: Re: new member

    And you think to have more consumers buying a Mac will give me more pro soft- and hardware? Well, that's an interesting way to look at it... I just can't see any connection! Maybe you can help me on that!

    In the pro market you only can pull new users on your side, when you give them the better equipment to do their work... Period!

    You are kidding, right? In one year the clockspeed of the top model went up 200MHz... WOW!!!! I am amazed! Not to mention the stone age RAM technology they are still using...

    Dude! Don't understand only what you want to understand! I am self-employed since more than 10 years and my own boss. I compare to other people in the market (some of them are close friends). Again I ask myself who you are to value the work of other people.

    If my equipment is 60% slower than the stuff of another person there, is no question about it that I am slower on tasks that are highly depending on system performance... Got it now? I think it is more a sign that I am extremely good in my job, when I can still compete with slow equipment like a current Mac!

    Thanks for the enlightment! But I was talking about SYSTEM PERFORMANCE! Do you think I didn't optimize my own working processes to the max?? The Mac is forcing me to do so since a long time. Otherwise I would be bancrupt already...

    Actually that is a pretty cool machine for easy word processing! I guess you didn't get the analogy I used...

    Well, smarty... Too bad that it doesn't mean that the rest of the work isn't affected too by the bad system perfomance. I just meant that 50% are completely dependent on the system performance. So just using the Mac is giving me a minimum time disadvantage of 15-30%. On a 10 hours workday that is at least 2-3 hours more time I need to do the same stuff than my competitor. And that every friggin' day! Need some help in math?

    It is a pain in the *ss to work in the calssic environment. I need MacOS X to work with and don't have the time to boot the machine every 2 hours again in MacOS 9 for 30 minutes because I have to do something in Photoshop! It is just one of a lot of apps I am using...

    *LOL* Now you really become funny! :D

    The decision for a platform you don't change over night, since your whole equipment is optimized to it for the needed work-flow, not to mention the software licensing that is involved. That's why you are patient for a while and check the numbers regularly, if it would cost you more to switch than to go on using the slow garbage. And as I said in my first statement, for me the point is reached when there is no logical argument left to stay with the Mac from an economical point of view, if Apple doesn't come out with some really perfomant pro gear very soon. I already said, that I'll give them til end of August, if nothing happened til then I have to go!

    You don't need to explain to me how it works to stay competetive in the market. I know probably more about it than you, otheriwse I wouldn't have survived that long with my own business.

    And once again... I just stated that FOR ME the point is reached when it isn't justifiable anymore from an economical point of view to stay with Apple as my primary platform. I am just very disappointed about it since I was (and still am a little bit) a Mac-Fan, not more and not less!

    So that doesn't make me a pro??? I see! maybe you just don't know what you are talking about since you sound like someone who never was running his own business and always was an employee!

    groovebuster
     
  22. teabgs macrumors 68030

    teabgs

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2002
    Location:
    behind you
    #22
    OK, I need to chime in here.

    First lets stop yelling at each other and talk in a more civilized manner.


    OK, better....now:
    I am a pro user as well. I am ALSO a student, and have almost no money. I have been saving for 2 years and have most of the money needed for a new tower. I NEED his thing to have the most power possible because it not only has to last me 3-4 years but has to be able to get my work done for that time span.

    I have a few freelance Video Editing jobs and I cant use a machine that own. I have to do it for an hour here and an hour there on machines at my work, where i cant be guaranteed time on the computers and when I can have the access is a crap shoot.

    Im not going to buy the Dual 1Ghz even though I have jobs that need to be done now. I know something new is on the horizon and will be damned if I buy before they're released!

    I couldnt afford it any earlier and now that I can there is nothing for me to buy. I hate windows and that is the ONLY reason I dont switch platforms. This computer will be my 3rd PowerMac in the 9 years...I helped push Apple through the hard times and have stuck up for them ever since I first switched to the mac so many years ago. I still love apple btu Im getting pissed off now.

    Theyre ignoring the ProUsers, and especially the old loyal ones who are the historical staple of Apple's market. I got a bunch of family members to buy machines from apple....an old iMac, a Cube, and now a new iMac.....all consumer machines. Expensive consumer machines....none of these sale would have happened if it werent for me, the pro.

    I understand if they want the Towers to ship with Jaguar, BUT they could have told us the specs and a shipping date instead of trying to force us to get the outdated crap they have now.

    I had this argument with a coworker the day of the expo.....and Apple's hardware IS outdated. The Bus speed and SDRAM is a joke. Its a bigger deal then the Mhz updates. I NEED a faster bus and DDR. If Apple had that in the Dual 1Ghz I would have one, and so would many other professionals.

    Anyone who isnt really a ProUser but is just a very advanced consumer...youre a ProSumer....not a ProUser. Im not saying its bad or that anyone is higher or above you, but that when you need AS MUCH POWER AS POSSIBLE....NAY MORE THEN THERE IS Just to get your work done in a timely manner and get food on the table.....then you are a Pro User.

    Apple cannot ignore the Pros for much longer or they will lose them and thus the company. Apple makes a lot of money off of Pros.....to much to lose...
     
  23. g4pismo macrumors member

    g4pismo

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2002
    Location:
    Atlanta
    #23
    IMHO, It is also about feeling that you get your $$ worth.. I may not be a *pro , but the further my side projects go, the more *pro power I need (want). Just because it isn't your 9-5 job , dosn't mean I want to wait on hardware that could be better. I have cash in hand waiting to buy, but like teabgs, the system I buy needs to last quite a long time, only diff. is since I am not a pro, I dont have a system budget.
     
  24. AlphaTech macrumors 601

    AlphaTech

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2001
    Location:
    Natick, MA
    #24
    stability

    I am talking about OS stability here.

    OS X (10.1.5 on a system with reasonable spec's) is solid as a rock. It blows the doors off windblows and is more stable then anything Apple has made up to this point.

    OS 9 (9.2.2) also IS stable (but not quite as much as OS X) provided you use your brains when using it. Know your computers limitations as well as those of your software.

    I use OS X (10.1.5) on my TiBook (800MHz) at home and don't remember it crashing. Applications can go down in OS X, but you don't get a system level crash from it (unless you are running some beta software with faulty code).

    I use OS 9 (9.2.2) on my G4 (733MHz pre-QS) tower at work, and it IS very stable. OS X is rock solid, but OS 9 doesn't give me more problems then I can accept. I also have 512MB of RAM inside the tower (768MB in the TiBook) which could have something to do with the stability.

    BOTH systems are configured with single partitions on the hard drives. I tend to neglect running utilities on my own systems, even though I should more often. I should run them on my work system, since I have been making and burning many cd's of late. Of all the applications I have installed on the work system, m$ orfice and outlook seem to be the least stable of all of them. I have a minor issue with outlook, and I don't go into orfice any more then I must (documents are sent all over the company in word/excel format, so I have to have it installed :().

    To speed up your older Mac there are more then a few things you can do. One is to jack up the memory amount, and use QUALITY memory. NOT the cheapest stuff you can find, that claims to work in your system. Another would be to install a faster hard drive, either higher speed ATA drives, with a controller card to match, or u2w (80MB or 160MB transfer rates with appropriate controller card) SCSI. You can also replace the video card with a better one (Radeon 8500 or 9000 Pro are both excellent choices). Sonnet has processor upgrades to bring you to either 800MHz or 1GHz. They also have L3 cache, which WILL give you a better performance boost. Any one of those will increase your speed (and productivity). All of them combined will make your old system seem like a brand new one.
     
  25. groovebuster macrumors 65816

    groovebuster

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2002
    Location:
    3rd rock from the sun...
    #25
    Re: stability

    But it doesn't solve the problem! A fast harddisk is nice, but doesn't make the CPU and RAM faster. I need POWER under the hood, not just spoilers and huge tires...

    Also a new video card doesn't help me, when the bottleneck is the CPU and the RAM. I don't wonna play games with my system.

    The current PowerMacs SUCK big time. Maybe they should be renamed into PlowerMac, considering how slowly they do their work compared to those hated Windows-Systems! :(

    groovebuster
     

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