Matrox Announces DS-1 Thunderbolt Docking Station for $249

[D.T.]

Thought I'd pop in and make comment in between the Superman vs. Batman debate

I'm actually getting very interested in the Belkin product, especially in it's newest design with the USB 3.0 ports and TB passthrough. I'd like some USB 3 connectivity to my external drives, and I've been working away from my desk on and off through the course of the daya good bit more, I'm digging on having my monitor, KB, external HDDs, GB ethernet and audio available with a single, simple connection point.

I'll have to weigh the convenience vs. the final price (many site reporting $300, but I believe at one time a $399 price was quoted, plus the $50 cable) vs. an updated CD/TB display with USB (and the other ports) incorporated, if the latter is even on Apple's roadmap...

 

[AidenShaw]

Why do you presume that TB docks won't "just work"?

Drivers for the PCIe controllers in the T-Bolt docks, for one.

 

[theluggage]

With the typical proprietary dock (AKA "port replicator") all of these device controllers are already on the motherboard, and minimal electronics are needed (and no additional drivers for the ports).

True, and the current TB hubs are expensive even c.f. proprietary laptop docks.

However, a dock uses the same generic TB controller and cabling as any other TB peripheral: currently an excuse for high prices but hopefully reducing in the future. Once you've got that, all you need is bog standard PCIe-to-Ethernet/USB3/Firewire/SATA chippery, which is hardly premium prices. If TB really takes off and the economies of scale set in, it could all be cheaper than the costs of manufacturing smaller quantities of proprietary docks and connectors.

I think it's a shame Apple haven't primed the pump by making a TB dock. I quite like the idea of the Belkin dock but (a) it still seems to be vapourware and (b) for that sort of price I'd expect a nice lump of Jonny Ive-carved brushed aluminium rather than a silvery plastic box with "Belkin" on it.

 

[FloatingBones]

Drivers for the PCIe controllers in the T-Bolt docks, for one.

To make a persuasive argument, you need to provide the specifics:

Who is doing that? What products? Why are they doing it that way? Why is it a problem?

Thank you.

 

[talmy]

I think it's a shame Apple haven't primed the pump by making a TB dock.

They have. It comes with a built-in 27" monitor and is called the "Apple Thunderbolt Display". Even Apple PR calls it "The ultimate docking station."

 

[AidenShaw]

To make a persuasive argument, you need to provide the specifics:

Who is doing that? What products? Why are they doing it that way? Why is it a problem?

Thank you.

Here's one thread to read about T-Bolt driver nightmares: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1240914/

I would think that it's generally understood that adding three or four third-party device drivers to a system for a basic function is not a good idea.

I wonder if the "vapourware" nature of the Belkin dock is related to getting the driver support issues solved....

 

[FloatingBones]

Here's one thread to read about T-Bolt driver nightmares: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1240914/

I would think that it's generally understood that adding three or four third-party device drivers to a system for a basic function is not a good idea.

What I don't understand is why you're blaming this on TB. If you had a Mac Pro and had this sort of RAID directly connected to your computer, you would have exactly the same problem, no?

My recommendation would be to avoid such storage devices -- no matter what computer you are connecting them to. The lack of interoperability of the device makes it a FAIL.

It clearly is possible to make a TB RAID (actually, RAID-like) device that works correctly under multiple environments. The Drobo devices should not have that problem.

I wonder if the "vapourware" nature of the Belkin dock is related to getting the driver support issues solved....

What specific interfaces in the Belkin device are you talking about? Again: why would any interface hanging off of a TB port have any driver issue that an interface directly hanging off of the computer have?

TB is just extending the processor bus, right?

 

[AidenShaw]

What I don't understand is why you're blaming this on TB. If you had a Mac Pro and had this sort of RAID directly connected to your computer, you would have exactly the same problem, no?

My earlier statement was that a proprietary laptop dock typically doesn't need third party device drivers - since the device controllers are on the laptop motherboard.

A T-Bolt based dock does need third party device drivers.

What specific interfaces in the Belkin device are you talking about? Again: why would any interface hanging off of a TB port have any driver issue that an interface directly hanging off of the computer have?

TB is just extending the processor bus, right?

You have device driver issues precisely because you're extending the peripheral bus. Mostly the same issues that you'd have with a third party device on an internal PCIe bus, plus the new T-Bolt only issues of hot plug and unplug.

 

[SterlingArcher]

Sorry, I am a bit bitter.

I got a mid-2011 MacBook Air, and that Thunderbolt port has been useless. I was very excited about the possibilities, but Apple and Belkin have really over-promised and under-delivered.

Please don't tell me I'm in the wrong because I didn't just run out and buy a $1k Thunderbolt display.

Apple's Firewire<-->Thunderbolt cable, listed as "coming soon!" at launch, took over a year to appear. The gigabit ethernet adapter took almost as long. My firewire audio recording interface and digital video camera remained shackled to the basement PC, and even now I have to choose between those, gigabit, an external monitor! Even had I made the substantial upgrade to the MacBook Pro, I would still be doing a "pick two."

Belkin's dock keeps getting pushed back, I figure the optical Thunderbolt cables will be out by the time this thing is even available! As other thunderbolt accessories start showing up, and mass-produced motherboards start to get Thunderbolt as well, the high price of this dock is getting less and less justifiable all the time. At this point the only thing I would understand is if they're adding on an HDMI output, but there's no way.

High price or not, I'm still itching for it, as this will let me plug in one cable and get:

• Thunderbolt (currently just for my monitor)
• A connection to my USB2 hub with my various iDevices, Androids, dev boards, etc. for development. (Mouse and keyboard are the lovely Apple wireless ones)
• Firewire audio interface
• Gigabit ethernet (woo hoo!)
• External Blu-Ray
• eSATA dock
• Two available USB3 ports
• Dinky 1/8" audio I'll never use

I've already got the thing filled up! I know with this "extended PCI bus" of Thunderbolt there's little reason for me to maintain separate desktop and laptop setups. That's worth well over $400 to me just in maintenance and materials - not to mention headache. Cloud services are getting good, but there's no replacement for having your mobile computer be your only computer.

People, don't dismiss it because you personally only have 4 or 5 things on your desk - it might not be for you!

---------------------

Personally I'm still on board with Thunderbolt's concept of a lightweight protocol essentially extending the PCI-Express bus over active cables, but I'm getting pretty sick of Belkin and Apple and their failure to deliver. From the outside, it seems like Intel has put together a pretty slick and simple system, but maybe it's somehow a disaster to implement. I don't know. I can't make heads or tails of this situation. It must be related to hot-plug/plug-n-play.

Ugh. If I wanted this kind of latency, I'd just go with a USB2 hub! (rimshot)

 

[FloatingBones]

My earlier statement was that a proprietary laptop dock typically doesn't need third party device drivers - since the device controllers are on the laptop motherboard.

Why "typically"? Why are you qualifying the statement?

A T-Bolt based dock does need third party device drivers.

I understand you made the claim. I don't understand why it's true.

Why would a USB-3 port need no driver on a laptop but would need one on a TB dock?

You have device driver issues precisely because you're extending the peripheral bus. Mostly the same issues that you'd have with a third party device on an internal PCIe bus, plus the new T-Bolt only issues of hot plug and unplug.

Hot plug is clearly a challenge. Based on the lack of complaints, it seems as if Apple has successfully engineered this on their new external display -- which is essentially a dock.

 

[theluggage]

They have. It comes with a built-in 27" monitor and is called the "Apple Thunderbolt Display". Even Apple PR calls it "The ultimate docking station."

Yeah - I kinda mean without the $800 display attached.

Even if I succumb to a TB display (which I might if they ever put USB3 in it) I might want a dock to carry around when needed (especially if they built a Magsafe into it).

 

[OllyW]

Apple's Firewire<-->Thunderbolt cable, listed as "coming soon!" at launch, took over a year to appear. The gigabit ethernet adapter took almost as long.

Are you sure about that?

The FireWire and Ethernet adaptors were only announced with the retina MBP back in June or do you mean something else?

 

[AidenShaw]

Why "typically"? Why are you qualifying the statement?

Because as I said recently "Never say never..." - all it takes is one unimportant exception and your claim is false.

And specifically in this case, in about 2000 I had a Compaq enterprise laptop that had a docking station the had three PCI slots in it. If I put PCI cards in the slots, I'd need to have drivers for those cards.

But the "typical" docking station today is a port replicator, without any additional devices in the dock. (The dock may need some driver support, but that's in the base OEM system image whether or not you connect a docking station.)

A T-Bolt based dock does need third party device drivers.

I understand you made the claim. I don't understand why it's true.

Because there are *no* T-Bolt devices.

I'll repeat - there are *no* T-Bolt devices.

If you buy a T-Bolt peripheral, it's a PCIe extension that has a PCIe controller after the T-Bolt, and requires a PCIe driver for that PCIe controller.

No driver, no device.

(The Apple T-Bolt display bends the logic a bit - it requires extra PCIe drivers for the PCIe device controllers in the T-Bolt display. But Apple bundles those drivers so they're not quite "third party" drivers.)

Why would a USB-3 port need no driver on a laptop but would need one on a TB dock?

Of course the USB controller on the laptop needs a driver - but the driver is bundled with the OEM image shipped with the laptop.

With T-Bolt, the USB controller in the dock might not be the one on the motherboard, so you have to load a third party driver. Even if it's the same controller - T-Bolt introduces timing and hot-plug issues that the stock driver doesn't need to handle.

Hot plug is clearly a challenge. Based on the lack of complaints, it seems as if Apple has successfully engineered this on their new external display -- which is essentially a dock.

True, and true that the third party docks are being called "vaporware" and are slipping quarter by quarter.

The fact that Apple's walled garden lets them control the variables and ship a product doesn't invalidate my statements about the T-Bolt driver nightmare.

What happens if you connect an Apple T-Bolt Display to a Windows or Linux system with T-Bolt? It's probably not pretty....