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Swampus

macrumors 6502
Jun 20, 2013
396
1
Winterfell
I honestly really don't care about either, I wasn't the one who brought it up, all snarky, in this thread. (Jbarley, if it bothers you that much I'll just remove it from my signature ;) )

In other words, you're saying that you couldn't care less?

Keep you signature. It's funny and I don't think anyone is being serious here! I'm not. :D
 

MacBH928

macrumors G3
May 17, 2008
8,303
3,706
You should not be surprised. There's still a lot of PowerPC Macs around, and most of that old software (from up until about 2008) is still available in some form. Sure, there are some things which you can simply not do, but most of these are more constrained by hardware performance than the existence of suitable software.

I'm sitting at my summer house writing my master's thesis on an MDD2003, using dropbox and the same version of word I use on my more current gear (MBP and MP).

I have an older MDD running as 24/7 server, and my only gripe is that the bugger runs hot in summer (so I'm planning on replacing it with an early intel mini within 12 months), my father works 5-8 hours a day on his Powerbook G4...

To be honest, I could easily supply all my computing needs with PowerPC gear, were it not for the simple reason that I am an impatient person who spends too large a portion of his income on gear...

- all that said, an SSD is a worthwhile upgrade for a G4/G5, as long as you can boot from it. My mother-in-law's 12" PBG4 boots in 15 seconds flat.

RGDS,

I am very interested by what you say, because computers and especially laptops always have a dying CD-ROM drive, motherboard, hard-drive , screen.

Do you think I can get a clamshell ibook, or the '12 white , to work fine from browsing the web today? Can it have wifi? Can it run youtube?
 

subaiku

macrumors regular
Jul 28, 2013
122
8
Hi philz4life, I've got a question. I attempted to change my case and PSU fans as well on my MDD. But after I put them in and started up the MDD the fans don't start up. The fans I got had 3 pins and at first I just put the corresponding colour wire to it's original pinhole like you did, black to black, red to red. Didn't work. Reversing the red and black also didn't work.

These are the fan models I got:
http://www.amazon.com/Cooler-Master-SickleFlow-Computer-R4-L2R-20AC-GP/dp/B0026ZPFCK

http://www.newboxx.com/item.php?id=12442

Any ideas what's gone wrong?
 

Swampus

macrumors 6502
Jun 20, 2013
396
1
Winterfell
Hi philz4life, I've got a question. I attempted to change my case and PSU fans as well on my MDD. But after I put them in and started up the MDD the fans don't start up. The fans I got had 3 pins and at first I just put the corresponding colour wire to it's original pinhole like you did, black to black, red to red. Didn't work. Reversing the red and black also didn't work.

These are the fan models I got:
http://www.amazon.com/Cooler-Master-SickleFlow-Computer-R4-L2R-20AC-GP/dp/B0026ZPFCK

http://www.newboxx.com/item.php?id=12442

Any ideas what's gone wrong?

Be careful about reversing polarity. Although it shouldn't damage the fan motor, it could, depending on the circuitry, damage the LED.

There are only three possibilities:

1) Faulty fans. Unlikely for all three of your new fans to be faulty.

2) Faulty motherboard / PSU connectors. Unlikely if the previous fans were working.

3) You have not made an electrical circuit. Did you strip the wires? Maybe post some pictures of the work that you have done?
 

rabidz7

macrumors 65816
Jun 24, 2012
1,205
3
Ohio
I am very very surprised you don't need an upgrade . I believe all software today will not run on a PowerPC. I think they stopped support for PowerPC like at least 3 years ago.

It will be interesting to see how does an SSD work with a 1.25 GHZ powerpc. IF you do not mind , update this thread with a link to your SSD coming post so I get a notification.

The bay with pirate ships full of softwarez in them still has PowerPC copies of all applications that are not currently supported.
 

seveej

macrumors 6502a
Dec 14, 2009
827
51
Helsinki, Finland
I am very interested by what you say, because computers and especially laptops always have a dying CD-ROM drive, motherboard, hard-drive , screen.

Do you think I can get a clamshell ibook, or the '12 white , to work fine from browsing the web today? Can it have wifi? Can it run youtube?

On the first thing: Yes, computers break - as does everything, but in my not so humble experience, and looking past some well known debacles, computer hardware is far more resilient than you could expect by reading forums. I strongly feel that a lot privately told tales of "broken" devices are mainly stories which are presented in order to motivate buying the newest and finest. I've even resorted to this type of subterfuge myself sometimes...

If the hardware is handled with care, the breakdown percentage is quite tolerable. I have a friend who repairs iPhones for a living, and his experience is that over 95 % of iPhone failures are to be attributed to
users dropping their iPhones - either into liquid or a hard surface. Regarding older gear, the problem lies mainly in the (relatively) excessive price of having a proficient technician do his magic combined with the relatively low know-how and interest-level of common users. I used to consult with some companies in the graphics industry, and even the slightest hiccup could lead to out-of-warranty computers ending up in the "to be recycled" -heap. I think the "my car ran out of gas so I go a new one" -story has to be inspired with someone who had worked in IT...

The easiest 600 € I ever made was with a DC G5, which had been given to me as "dead" and turned out to be a wobbly power connector on the logic board..

I've had (after 20+ years of daily intensive computer use) only one case in
which the computer was ruined due to a hardware fault - a dodgy PSU which fried the motherboard (and NIC+GPU). Otherwise the usual culprits are Hard drives (that's why you keep backups), fans (especially the smaller ones) and DVD drives (easily replaced...). Usually none of these are terminal as components are made to be exchanged...

That said, these types of component failures are not as typical as reading these forums would lead you to believe. I buy a lot of components nth-hand (for personal use), and besides some dodgy RAM (which I dug up from a one-euro discount bin), I have not suffered a broken component for at least four years.

Except my iPhone 4, I do not currently own a single piece of computing hardware which I had not bought used. I usually source my used gear locally, and avoid making trades with nameless sellers. I tend to sound out the seller, and am easily convinced by the life-story of the hardware. Likewise, I sell a lot of stuff forward and have not heard from anyone who would have complained that the gear would have broken.

As a rule of thumb you could say, that if the hardware is at least three years old (so that any built-in deficiencies have had the time to surface), and the seller has clearly not mistreated the gear, you're quite safe. So what if you buy an MDD and the superdrive breaks - get a new (or used) one.

For me the real sin is in all those people who don't bother to recycle their hardware and leave it standing in the rain besides the dumpster. My dream is that Apple (or some other hardware manufacturer) would finance the postage of sending broken or spent hardware for evaluation and selective recycling...

On the second point you raise,
People need to keep in mind, that the full "HD experience" is not what everyone uses their computers for. Most people who accept the idea of buying a computer X years old also accept that they should not expect to be able to do everything invented in those X years.

I regularly blow the dust off my late 2001 12" iBook (which does not differ from a clamshell iBook that much) and take it for a spin. I've upgraded the HDD (the old one was getting noisy, and I've maxed out the RAM (to a whopping 640 MB) and added an Airport card. It runs Tiger nicely. I use it whenever I would worry too much about my MBP (whenever I'm in dirty/dusty surroundings or where the risk of someone stealing it is heightened.) If I'm outside of WLAN coverage I use a 3G USB dongle, which works nicely on the iBook's USB 1.1. It handles office, basic internet and email without a hitch. I admit it's as old as my car, but I do not yet think of my car as an "old" car.

I admit there are a lot of things I *could* do on my MBP, which I cannot use the iBook for, but most of those things are such that I do not do them anyway, such as:
- Viewing HD video. Good movies are not made better by adding pixels or sound channels. The iBook plays DVD's nicely.
- Browsing youtube. Except a minuscule percentage, the stuff's not worth spending time on.
- Playing 3D-games. Quite honestly I feel 3D has been a mixed blessing for games...
- Flash-stuff. I've systematically uninstalled flash on all PPC machines and blocked (click-to'ed) Flash on all my Intel gear - I can't say I miss it, infact, the web is so much better once all that flash-content is bypassed...
- Video and 3D-crunching. But who would buy a 12-year old computer with that intent...

The only real gripe i have about the performance of the iBook is that there are starting to be some quite productivity -oriented sites which utilize javascript so intensely, that the machine slows to a crawl. Just today I tried to look up the inventory of a hardware store, and the experience was baaad...

One final note: PPC software-wise is a potential problem, especially as time progresses, but (assuming you can accept missing out on the latest and greatest) not yet. In fact, I still feel that the lack of PPC support past Snow Leopard (have not yet gone past SL, even sold a nice MBP which came with Lion) is a greater problem than the availability of PPC apps...

RGDS,
 

Swampus

macrumors 6502
Jun 20, 2013
396
1
Winterfell
Nice post, seveej. I tend to agree. I suspect that logic board failures, especially in G4 models, are greatly over-reported. I've purchased several that were advertised that way as parts machines, but it was something stupidly simple in every case. The memory needed to be reseated in one. The video card needed to be reseated in another. The third actually had a bad video card, but all of the motherboards were fine.

G4s are amazingly dependable machines. Build one that you like and then pick up a parts machine for $40 and you're good to go for a very long time.

Things made during the Capacitor Plague tend to have a higher than normal failure rate, but even that depends on how you look at it. I don't equate a failed capacitor with a failed board. A few dollars and an hour or two of my time equals minor annoyance, not catastrophic failure.
 

MacBH928

macrumors G3
May 17, 2008
8,303
3,706
I am looking into clamshells right now... thanks.

How do you deal with batteries? these die like in 3 years or so. Do they still sell parts for it?
 

subaiku

macrumors regular
Jul 28, 2013
122
8
Be careful about reversing polarity. Although it shouldn't damage the fan motor, it could, depending on the circuitry, damage the LED.

There are only three possibilities:

1) Faulty fans. Unlikely for all three of your new fans to be faulty.

2) Faulty motherboard / PSU connectors. Unlikely if the previous fans were working.

3) You have not made an electrical circuit. Did you strip the wires? Maybe post some pictures of the work that you have done?

Thanks Swampus! I managed to work it out in the end. I fiddled around with the fans wires and tried connecting differently to the 2 pin connectors and found out it was because they just weren't connected properly. You indeed have to plug the red to the red and the black to the blacks EXACTLY. (Didn't help that the case fan wires had no colours :p)

Problem solved! :)

Although the fan noise isn't as quiet as I hoped it'd be. Is it supposed to be 'whisper quiet' as reported by most people?
 

philz4life

macrumors member
Original poster
Jan 15, 2013
54
2
Thanks Swampus! I managed to work it out in the end. I fiddled around with the fans wires and tried connecting differently to the 2 pin connectors and found out it was because they just weren't connected properly. You indeed have to plug the red to the red and the black to the blacks EXACTLY. (Didn't help that the case fan wires had no colours :p)

Problem solved! :)

Although the fan noise isn't as quiet as I hoped it'd be. Is it supposed to be 'whisper quiet' as reported by most people?

sorry that I didn't answer to you before. Mine isn't 'whisper quiet' either, but it is definitely an improvement. I haven't replaced my case fan yet, so hopefully it will help more. People who say theirs are whisper quiet probably have CHUD installed, which throttles down the CPUs when they aren't in high use. I haven't been able to use it yet, but my SSD parts should come today so I'll be able to get back to you on this soon.

----------

I am looking into clamshells right now... thanks.

How do you deal with batteries? these die like in 3 years or so. Do they still sell parts for it?

If you get one with a bad battery, just get a replacement from eBay
Luckily people still do sell parts for them.
 

subaiku

macrumors regular
Jul 28, 2013
122
8
sorry that I didn't answer to you before. Mine isn't 'whisper quiet' either, but it is definitely an improvement. I haven't replaced my case fan yet, so hopefully it will help more. People who say theirs are whisper quiet probably have CHUD installed, which throttles down the CPUs when they aren't in high use. I haven't been able to use it yet, but my SSD parts should come today so I'll be able to get back to you on this soon.

No worries. I have CHUD installed and and even with all my case and power unit fans replaced, there is still a 'hum' which is quite noticable. I've opened up the case to take a look and found out it's still the power unit fans that are making the most noise. The case fan and motherboard fan is practically noiseless.
 

DZ/015

macrumors 6502a
Mar 23, 2003
875
26
New England
Those 2 60mm fans on the power supply are never very quiet.

I tried several differenet ones before I gave up and just gutted the power supply and used a single 80mm fan. Much quieter now.
 

Andropov

macrumors 6502a
May 3, 2012
742
987
Spain
Those 2 60mm fans on the power supply are never very quiet.

I tried several differenet ones before I gave up and just gutted the power supply and used a single 80mm fan. Much quieter now.

Did you tried with Noctua fans?
 

Swampus

macrumors 6502
Jun 20, 2013
396
1
Winterfell
Thanks Swampus! I managed to work it out in the end. I fiddled around with the fans wires and tried connecting differently to the 2 pin connectors and found out it was because they just weren't connected properly. You indeed have to plug the red to the red and the black to the blacks EXACTLY. (Didn't help that the case fan wires had no colours :p)

Problem solved! :)

Although the fan noise isn't as quiet as I hoped it'd be. Is it supposed to be 'whisper quiet' as reported by most people?

I don't have any experience with those particular fans. I opted for the Vantec TF6025s in mine. They're much better than OEM, but I've never met an MDD that that I'd call "whisper quiet". I suspect that Aquamac's liquid cooled MDD would be the only one to claim that distinction. My Vantecs are quiet enough that I don't hear them over music or TV played at low volume. That's enough for me.
 

subaiku

macrumors regular
Jul 28, 2013
122
8
Those 2 60mm fans on the power supply are never very quiet.

I tried several differenet ones before I gave up and just gutted the power supply and used a single 80mm fan. Much quieter now.

Would you have a tutorial of some sort of how you did your replacement?

I don't have any experience with those particular fans. I opted for the Vantec TF6025s in mine. They're much better than OEM, but I've never met an MDD that that I'd call "whisper quiet". I suspect that Aquamac's liquid cooled MDD would be the only one to claim that distinction. My Vantecs are quiet enough that I don't hear them over music or TV played at low volume. That's enough for me.

Is this it? Looks interesting, I might give it a go one day.
http://www.s155158671.websitehome.co.uk/watercoolyourmdd.html

But yeah, the noise from my MDD is tolerable now with music on.
 

madhatmac

macrumors newbie
Jun 25, 2013
27
0
Hi Folks,

I finally performed this fan mod!

Step 1)
Even before I changed the power supply fans, however, I changed the single main 120 mm cooling fan to a SilenX iXtrema Pro Fan (IXP-76-18). This mod didn't seem to make much difference in noise reduction, however.

The temps with the original 120mm fan got to about 56C°.

No_CHUD_original_fan.png

With the SilenX installed, the temps jumped to 59C°. So perhaps the 90CFM rating is not accurate.

No_CHUD_Silenx.png

So this fan mod wasn't all it was cut out to be but I left the SilenX fan in there anyway.

Step 2)
The next task was to change the power supply fans. These I changed with exactly the same fans as philz4life: the Everflow F126025DH DC (which can be found on the Thermaltake Volcano 5 heatsink).

This fan mod definitely reduced the noise considerably but I certainly wouldn't say the MDD was "quiet". I would say it is noisier than my G5 PowerMac. Nevertheless, it is now at a tolerable noise level.

I think the air coming out the back of the power supply is slightly less but the MDD has so far held up to testing. (Some folks say the ratings on these fans isn't really 32CFM but more like 24CFM.)

Step 3)
Now, the next step was to install CHUD 3.5.2.

When I turned on CHUD's Nap mode, you can noticeably hear the fan noise increase to a higher pitch/whine. So, with Nap mode on, the machine is louder but still not as bad as with the original power supply fans and no Nap mode.

The benefit of Nap mode was to see the temperatures drastically drop. While idle, the MDD would run at 33°C as opposed to 59°C without Nap mode.

With_CHUD_Silenx.png

While performing tasks, however, the temps could get up to 59°C.

With_CHUD_under_load_Silenx.png

Anyway, thanks to philz4life for the original post (the photos were a great help) and thanks to Swampus for the instructions on how to create an Applescript to launch CHUD at start up.

My next step might be to put the original 120mm fan back in. I don't think mine was that noisy and it kept the temps 4°C lower.
 
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Swampus

macrumors 6502
Jun 20, 2013
396
1
Winterfell
View attachment 439483

While performing tasks, however, the temps could get up to 59°C.

View attachment 439484

Anyway, thanks to philz4life for the original post (the photos were a great help) and thanks to Swampus for the instructions on how to create an Applescript to launch CHUD at start up.

My next step might be to put the original 120mm fan back in. I don't think mine was that noisy and it kept the temps 4°C lower.

What kind of CPU load are we talking about to get that 59°C? What is your ambient room temperature where the machine is operating? Your idle temperature looks okay, but the load temperature would be a little high for my comfort. It's within specs, but at the high end of the operating range specified by Motorolla. I can run mine at 80 to 90+% CPU for an hour and not break 50°C (with a room temperature of 70°F).

The new Intel chips can safely run much hotter, but IIRC, 62°C is considered the upper limit for these 7455s.

Did you get a chance to redo the thermal compound? If not, that could be the missing piece of the puzzle. If you've done the thermal compound, then yeah, I'd definitely consider putting the noisier fan back in. I might also consider adding a couple more fans. An exhaust fan positioned between the CPU heatsink and the rear of the case, so that it actually pulls air through the cooling fins, can be helpful. To my thinking, an intake fan of equal to or greater value than the exhaust fan would also need to be placed in the front. I'm not an engineer, but I think the same could be said of the people who originally designed this. My thinking is that an exhaust fan by itself would create competition for the PSU fans, so it needs to be paired with an intake fan in the front to offset what is being pulled from the back in order to maintain the same equilibrium. Whether my reasoning is right or wrong, this actually did work well for me for several years before I discovered CHUD. I ran mine this way from 2004 to 2008 and it made about a six degree difference (not as much as nap mode, but still helpful).
 

Cox Orange

macrumors 68000
Jan 1, 2010
1,814
241
I know the door fan is not the real noise factor, but may I ask, does only a 60x10mm fan fit in there or is there some more room?
 

Swampus

macrumors 6502
Jun 20, 2013
396
1
Winterfell
I know the door fan is not the real noise factor, but may I ask, does only a 60x10mm fan fit in there or is there some more room?

It's actually 15mm. It just looks like 10mm because a third of it is below the door. I don't think you'd have much leeway without some modifications. Maybe a extra millimeter or two, but not enough to accommodate the next standard fan size. If you didn't have an optical drive, and were using the optical bay for 3.5 inch or smaller drives, then yes, you could install a 20 or 25mm fan and cut out a corresponding square in the optical cage.
 

madhatmac

macrumors newbie
Jun 25, 2013
27
0
What kind of CPU load are we talking about to get that 59°C? What is your ambient room temperature where the machine is operating? Your idle temperature looks okay, but the load temperature would be a little high for my comfort. It's within specs, but at the high end of the operating range specified by Motorolla. I can run mine at 80 to 90+% CPU for an hour and not break 50°C (with a room temperature of 70°F).

Hi Swampus. It's really only a hobby computer and I was playing Return to Castle Wolfenstein for a good hour before checking the temps. I don't know the exact % CPU load. I'll have to check and get back to you :)

Did you get a chance to redo the thermal compound? If not, that could be the missing piece of the puzzle.

No, I didn't do the thermal compound. That sounds like a good idea. I might give it a go (especially since I just bought some Artic Silver to fix the neighbour's flat-panel G4 iMac).

I've put the MDD away in storage at the moment but I'll get it out again to tinker with, I think. It might be a few weeks before I can work on it again but I'll be sure to post my findings.

Thanks for all your comments :)
 

Cox Orange

macrumors 68000
Jan 1, 2010
1,814
241
It's actually 15mm. It just looks like 10mm because a third of it is below the door. I don't think you'd have much leeway without some modifications. Maybe a extra millimeter or two, but not enough to accommodate the next standard fan size. If you didn't have an optical drive, and were using the optical bay for 3.5 inch or smaller drives, then yes, you could install a 20 or 25mm fan and cut out a corresponding square in the optical cage.
Ah, ok. Somehow I had written down 60x10 in my notes (was a mistake, because I jumped in the line of a replacement fan that specs were given, above that I have the Delta AFB0612HHB, which is, as you say, a 60x15mm).

I found this, which I wanted to share: http://skinflint.co.uk/eu/fander-roxo-ultra-silent-60x60x15mm-a-a654488.html
It is a tad above the Delta in terms of airflow, but much quieter, if the specs are really true.
 

madhatmac

macrumors newbie
Jun 25, 2013
27
0
Did you get a chance to redo the thermal compound?

Hi Swampus,

I finally got around to redoing the thermal compound with some Arctic Silver.

Here are my temps. They have increased!!!

--------------------------------------------
CHUD not activated while idle:

No_Chud_idle.jpg

CHUD not activated while under load:

No_Chud_under_load.jpg
--------------------------------------------

And...

--------------------------------------------
CHUD activated while idle:

With_Chud_idle.jpg

CHUD activated while under load:

With_Chud_under_load.jpg
--------------------------------------------

Please note a few things:
- I have an ATI Radeon X800 XT graphics card installed (previously OEM card)
- I have 3 hard drives in the machine (previously just 1 hard drive)
- the ambient temperature is hotter now (summer in Australia). The room temperature was about 28°C when tested.

So this is one hot MDD. It almost hit 70°C! I wonder what the max is before it shuts down?
 
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