Me Being Mad/Church/Christianity

Discussion in 'Community' started by scem0, Oct 6, 2002.

  1. scem0 macrumors 604

    scem0

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    #1
    I am really pissed right now. It is a Sunday morning, and my mom is making me go to church. Well, I can't say I'm not mad every sunday before church - Its just that today I think I will do something about it. Ever since I can remember my mom has been dragging me kicking and screaming - by the ears - to church. Last week, I decided I wanted to go, because we were having a sermon for the sceptic christians. I am about the biggest sceptic out there. So I went and listened. After it was all over, I was the most anti-christian person in the world. I don't hate christians, I just awe in wonder that they believe so many things that they have no good reason to believe in. I was a faithful christian from the ages of 10-12, I would bring my own money every suday to church and make an offering when even my mom didn't. I would pray for myself and others. What did I get out of being a devote christian? NOTHING. It is because a huge omnipotent super-God doesn't exist. Maybe he does, I am not totally ignoring that possibility. But I have no reason to believe that there is a God, and not Vishnu, Krishna, Satan, or any other diety of another religeon. So, after that sermon about scepticism, I went home and researched different religions. I have come to the conclusion that:

    1 - I wont be christian until God knocks on my door, and tells me he is real himself
    2 - I won't believe in any religion that makes bogus claims about anything at all
    3 - I will be a religion that bases itself on rationality and thought.
    4 - I will not be a religion because my mom makes me, or because a lot of other people are.

    After looking at all these things, the religion that I thought suited me best is Neo-Tech. Neo-Tech is the absence of mysticism. I recommend that y'all research it. It has been firmly established in my family that I am neo-tech. My mom won't except it though, and so today I am being dragged back to christian church for the 99999999999999 time. How can my mom force me to go to church? I know she has the right to as my mother. BUt isn't it not a very christian thing to do. Force someone to go somewhere they don't want to go. I have no way to argue with my mom. She is not rationalizing in this particular situation. She is saying "I only have 2 rules that I require to be inforced: 1) You have to go to church every sunday 2) You can't ever drop out of school. So she has basically been forcing christianity upon me for the last 13 years. If I argue about it she talks about how she is going to make me go on Wed. too. Any suggestions on how I can NOT go to church? Any good points I could make to her to change her stubborness? Is there any way I can make my own choice about my own religion/my own life? My mom is making me very mad right now....
     
  2. edesignuk Moderator emeritus

    edesignuk

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    #2
    This thread has the potential to get nasty, just remember everyone, "each to his own opinion" and we'll be ok :D :p :cool:
     

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  3. Hemingray macrumors 68030

    Hemingray

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    #3
    Re: Me Being Mad/Church/Christianity

    1 - That ain't gonna happen.
    2 - Then you may as well become an atheist or an agnostic. Every religion has what appear to be "bogus" claims. The fact is, it's based on faith. That's the whole point in believing in something.
    3 - There are plenty of rational points to being in a religion. You should take a course in apologetics sometime; that's when it gets interesting.
    4 - No one can make you be anything. Your mother obviously cares enough about you that she thinks that this will benefit you.

    I am a Christian, and I will admit that there have been plenty of times that I have doubted my faith. But it all boils down to faith, it really does.
     
  4. Dignan macrumors 6502a

    Dignan

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    #4
    Sorry for terrible spelling....

    Ever think that there is a god of reason too? Not just a god of faith? Check this....

    So, I assume you would say its true that if there were a god, that he would be the greatest being existing. So, he would have the largest amount possible of all the "great making" properties...omnibenevolent, omniscent, omnipotent, all that stuff...

    So...

    We can concieve (as we just have) of a most perfect being (god)

    If something is a most perfect being, it exists (because it would be "less perfect" if it did not exist)

    It is coherant that a most perfect being necissarily exists...

    If it is coherant, it is possible..

    A most perfect being is possible...

    So then a most perfect being necissarily exists.

    In other words....

    1. Concept of god -> God is non-contingent (either exists or doesnt out of necessity)

    2. Existence of god is coherent

    3. God Is possible (from #2)

    4. God is actual ( from #3 and #1)

    Now, you can run this arguement in reverse, saying that the non-existence of god is possible, etc. But it doesnt work, because "not existing" is not a concept of a most perfect being, so it wont work. But yeah, then it brings up, is this the same god as the god of faith? Oh well, who knows...I just think its the best arguement.
     
  5. Durandal7 macrumors 68040

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  6. Dignan macrumors 6502a

    Dignan

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    #6
    So true.

    I just used it as an oppertunity to help remember stuff I gotta know for my philosophy class...wheeeee....
     
  7. Hemingray macrumors 68030

    Hemingray

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    #7
    Definitely, thus my mentioning of taking an apologetics course. I didn't mean that Christianity is a completely blind faith. Ultimately, though, it has to boil down to us believing in whatever the evidence presented before us. The evidence could be piled up right in front of us but if our hearts and eyes remain closed it is useless.
     
  8. scem0 thread starter macrumors 604

    scem0

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    #8
    Re: Re: Me Being Mad/Church/Christianity

    1 - I know it will never happen, that is why I don't believe in God
    2 - Not all religions make bogus claims. Such as Confusianism, Buddhism, and Neo-Tech. They Don't claim to know how people were created, or that there is a god.
    3 - There are plenty of rational points. But there are more rational points in Buddhism then in Christianity.
    4 - I know my mom is doing this because she loves me. But she is making me hate christianity more and more.

    --

    In church, like I said they are trying to explain miracles, and Jesus' life, but it is impossible. It is like trying to prove that 6=-6. They are trying to prove the impossible. They make some good points, but they can usually be applied to other dieties. Such as: Today they said that many people would believe in God if they saw a miracle happen. The Preacher said that mostpeople were lying when they said that. And to prove it he showed a video of a man who was going mute get his voice back in a time period of about 5 seconds. It was definitely miraculous, but there are a million reasons why I am not believing in God after seeing this.

    a. Maybe it occured naturally. Miraculous things happen every day that stay within the laws of nature.
    b. Maybe it was fake. Maybe he was staging it all so more people would come to his church or just for fame. It could happen.
    c. Why God? Even if it was a miracle, why is it God who healed him, and not Krishnu, Zeus, Amen Ra, Satan, or tree spirits? It could be any god of any religion.
     
  9. scem0 thread starter macrumors 604

    scem0

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    #9
    THere is no evidence of christianity being true though. There is very limited evidence. When I look at a religion I want the religion to admit that they don't have a clue how humans exist, or how whatever created humans was created. That is why I like Buddhism, Confusianism, and Neo-Tech. THey don't claim to know anything. THey base religion on science, and on what is known to be true based on experience and expiramentation.
     
  10. Dignan macrumors 6502a

    Dignan

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    #10
    I have a feeling that "neo-tech" isnt gonna be taken seriously until they get a name that isnt laughable.

    Or, until tom cruise and john travolta adopt it...

    where is the love for scientology in this thread!?
     
  11. vniow macrumors G4

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    #11
    Logical argument for the existence of a higher being:

    What makes one moment pass into the next?
     
  12. krossfyter macrumors 601

    krossfyter

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    #12
    hehe thanks for that durandal!


    scem0 you need to really study apologetics. all the points you are making are very shallow and can easily be shattered but i will stop my self from doing that because i know thats not what you need. just know that these thoughts you have... have been thought before and with a little reaserch and theological education will become faded thoughts as you understand more about christianity or any other religion for that matter.


    if you want you can check out this...
    reasons

    this is a site that does a good job in presenting that science and faith are, and always will be, allies, not enemies

    if nothing more you can get some apologetics training. heh... its fun man.


    (there might be some people who see this who will want to try and debunk this sites claims and tell me about it.... dont try... its not worth it. debunk it for yourself if you may.... if you choose to. just dont come to me i will not be shaken... just trying to spare some time thats all:D )
     
  13. scem0 thread starter macrumors 604

    scem0

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    #13
    How are my arguments shallow? I don't understand... I just think that a religion should make sense logically. Christianity does most of the time, but it makes a lot less sense then other religions. SO why should I choose christianity over those other religions? Because more people practice it? Of course not. But I see no reason why I should believe in Christianity.

    Neo-Tech does need a new name. I always feel that my love for computers is my religion when I say Neo-Tech.
     
  14. vniow macrumors G4

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    #14
    There's no reason why you SHOULD believe in Christianity.
    Nobody here's trying to convert you, we're just trying to educate you on what the purpose of relgion actually is.:)
     
  15. krossfyter macrumors 601

    krossfyter

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    #15
    well your believe should not be contingent (dependent) upon the people and how they act or what they do or say or dont say. if you want to really believe in the truth and are sincere about it then ask God or the higher being ... supreme being or however yo see it... ask who ever is up there to show you whats up... you just have to be really sincere man. in time.. it may be short or it be a while but in time God will show himself.. .it may be in a way that you dont expect... thats the most intresting ways by the way.... but it will happen. i have enough faith and trust in God to tell you this. I dont doubt at all.. in the least bit. Why? because it has happned to me and it has happned to countless other people I know.
     
  16. Dignan macrumors 6502a

    Dignan

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    #16
    I think lots of what you are talking to has to do less with the logistics of christianity, and more about what church you are going to, your relationship with your mom, etc. I mean, personally, Im not all that big into church itself, but that doesnt mean im gonna playa hate on christians in general. Organized religion is strange. Ive been to lots of really bad churches, but now we got one thats nice...so its all good.
     
  17. elfin buddy macrumors 6502a

    elfin buddy

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    #17
    here we go...

    scem0:

    I think you should sit down with your parents and calmly talk about it. I mean both parents (I'm assuming you have 2), and not just your mom because your dad will be able to act as a mediator. Whatever you do, don't flip out at her for trying to bring you to church.

    If I were in your position, I would willingly go to church every Sunday with my family to learn as much as possible about Christianity. This way, you will be more able to combat it in the future, and it will help ease tensions between you and your mother. I also recommend that you go to www.beliefnet.com

    It is an awesome site and you can learn a lot there. They have discussion groups for just about every religion in existance, and you can find other there who are in the same situation as yourself. I post there under the same alias as I do here. However, I don't post often, and most of my posts are either in the Teens section or the Atheist Challenge and Critique section.

    Good luck!
     
  18. krossfyter macrumors 601

    krossfyter

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    #18
    very true dignan... very true indeed.


    i too have been to many chrurches or events in which the christians there just bothered the heck out of me man. however i know my faith and my beleive in the truth is NEVER dependent on others. I am secure in myself to know for sure without a shadow of a doubt (now) that Jesus is the one and only savior. NO one and I mean no one... regardless of how they act or what they say will never change that in me.


    sometimes i think that christians can be real punks man ... real hard and judgemental etc. etc. i know a lot that i just dont even want deal with because they bother me to the point where i just want to go do a football tackle on them or whatever.. heh... i mean im really considering getting that sticker that says "Jesus save me from your followers" .... however i would customize it to say "Jesus save me from some of your followers".


    every group has thier bad apples... its not just one group. ive just been around christians long enough to develop more of a stink on some of them.


    however there are a lot of christians and people of other faiths thaty i know that are real nice and cool.
     
  19. krossfyter macrumors 601

    krossfyter

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    #19
    www.beliefnet.com is an intresting site. i learned about it when i did a search on U2 and thier faith a while back and i linked up to it.
     
  20. scem0 thread starter macrumors 604

    scem0

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    #20
    I get what y'all are saying and I know y'all aren't trying to convert me. My mom doesn enough of that ;D. I just don't like the logic used in Christianity. I don't like the mysticism involoved. I have trouble believing that there was a man named Jesus who walked on water, and changed water into wine. It just doesn't sound like something that anyone in their right mind would believe in. I mean, if you came up to someone who had no concept of religion, and told them that there was an omnipotent being that created us all, and that he will guide us during life, and shower us with his grace - THat he sent his only son to correct the wrong-doings of mankind
    (and that he walked on water), he would think you were crazy. I guess I kind of feel Christians are crazy to a certain degree.
     
  21. krossfyter macrumors 601

    krossfyter

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    #21

    understood. but you must understand, and if you want in time you will, that there is more to this life then just logic. there are supernatural aspects to life that sometimes defy logics laws or reasoning you know. not everything HAS to be explained. there are mysterious to this world that will rattle your brain man. thats whats soo cool. if everything were logic oriented it be boring here. whatever.. just know that your wanting everything to be understood or logical is impossible.
    were human beings with finite mans who are very fallible .

    If you beleive in God being the creator of the world/universe there should be no trouble inbeleving that God can send himself in human form and perform the miracles said in the bible. why would human logic limit a God that created humans?
     
  22. scem0 thread starter macrumors 604

    scem0

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    #22
    Why try to understand supernatural things when they are impossible to understand. Why are supernatural things always connected to God? I think that science should try to explain supernatural events the best it can, and if it can't then there is no logical explanation and I am sure that people will make up spiritual explanations, but they won't be true. FOr example: THunder and Lightning was thought to be sent by the gods a long time ago. To the ancient humans they were supernatural. Science has, since then, proven them wrong. And thunder and lighting are known not to come from gods but from natural forces.
     
  23. krossfyter macrumors 601

    krossfyter

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    #23
    science is not going to save the world. science doesnt have all the answers.. we would be abusing the subject if we thought it did. there are essential ideas of quantum mechanics that are proposterous for us to believe logically. yet some scientists have to have a little faith. science can never explain everything. sometimes things happen that defy explanation and to use the argument that perhaps human science can figure it out is to go at it from the wrong perspective.
     
  24. scem0 thread starter macrumors 604

    scem0

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    #24
    Religion can't explain them either. Religion tries to but there is no explanation.
     
  25. krossfyter macrumors 601

    krossfyter

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    #25

    i didnt say it could.. or nor was i implying it.


    religion (an institution designed by man to reach God) is in essence man made in the first place. so of course it cnat explain everything.
     

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