Microsoft, Apple and Digital Music Cooperation?

[MorganX]

Re: iTunes for Windows....a percentage of sales from said site?

Originally posted by iAlan
I think Apppe will allow MS to get a percentage of sales from iTunes downloads from Windows computers, in return for Windows not launching it's own music service, thus protecting the iPod which will still remain AAC and other music services will be stuck with half-assed MP3 player knock-offs.

I am not saying this is perfect, but Apple will continue to make money of of the iTunes store, and re-inforce the superiority of the iPod.....

I don't think any money will be exchanged. And there's a whole lot of sweet MP3 players that are not iPod knock-offs. In fact, the next Napster player actually looks pretty sweet (to me anyway), the original sucks terribly. The Italian Job DVD is giving a lot of free advertisement to Napter right now. This thing is just getting started.

edit: of course I think ALL music-only high-end MP3 players' days are numbered.

 

[-hh]

Re: Simply do away with DRM

Originally posted by jocknerd
Its going to happen. The record labels will cave in eventually. We don't have DRM on cd's purchased in the store, at least they've failed trying different methods. So why should we settle for DRM on online music?

I was thinking a similar thing: the root of the problem is not really the file formats as much as the DRM which ties people to them. If you get rid of the DRM handcuffs (which means to get rid of the anti-consumer aspects of the Digital Millennium Act), then people are free to transform their file formats as they wish.

Give us a choice of format. Ogg for compressed music or FLAC for uncompressed. Or is it because these are free formats, it goes against the corporate mindset of Apple and Microsoft?

Or because you avoid having to pay a commission to anyone.


"Compatibility" can be created simply by updating the platform software. You need players for each of AAC & MWA, and the DRM needs to be able to "Trade Songs" between the two. And instead of doing a physical conversion from the one format to the other, it just needs to be able to take the existing DRM data and create a new original - either via CD or via download.

Of coruse for the latter, there will inevitably be someone within the food chain somewhere who will want to charge a "handling fee" for this 'DRM Service'. Its just the old bit of "Folllow The Money"...

FWIW, I have to personally wonder how many people go out and buy a stack of Used CD's, rip them (thus gaining the DRM) and then taking the CD's back to the Used CD store and trading them in to get another batch. Yeah, that takes some work, but we have to remember that the reality to all of this is that consumers are motivated to find alternatives when costs are outlandishly high. IMO, if AOL can send me an infinite number of free CD's in the mail, the music industry can still turn a profit at 1/3rd to 1/4th their current retail prices, which would eliminate most of the motivation (some of which are not legal) to find lower-priced alternatives.


-hh

 

[singletrack]

Originally posted by NavyIntel007
Converting for DRM bla bla bla...

Just make WMA work on an ipod and AAC work on other players. Why make it so the music is MORE lossy?

AFAIK, the iPod has no DRM in it at all. When you copy DRM'd songs to it in iTunes, the Fairplay DRM part is removed by iTunes. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

The DRM only relates to your Mac/PC, not your player.

AAC already works on other players. Panasonic have a growing range of AAC based players and Nokia have a couple too. They don't use Apple's Fairplay DRM. If iTunes supported copying iTunes store bought tunes to them then that would be great and that is what needs doing. The Nokia players have some weird file format problems but otherwise work with non-DRM AAC files.

Real are also using AAC but with their own Helix DRM. It would just need Apple to support Helix in iTunes for the iPod to support the Real store.

Apple have more to gain by opening up iTunes to other DRM methods than supporting WMA IMHO.

 

[1macker1]

It's about darn time!

 

[singletrack]

Re: Re: I don't get it?

Originally posted by weave
Good point. Microsoft doesn't own a music store -- yet.

YES THEY DO.

Microsoft run the MSN Music Club with OD2.com and have been running a European music store since last August.

Obviously this doesn't register on the grand scheme of things as it's not USA-ian but OD2/Microsoft have been quietly signing up European music companies and licencing their technology to other music stores in Europe for some time.

Apple are way behind in Europe, again.

 

[Wendy_Rebecca]

Nice try, but...

Originally posted by marco114
AAC = Open Standard
WMA = Closed Proprietary Technology

WHen you put it like that, seems like a no brainer...

Yeah. when you put it like that. Unfortunately, you failed to note that PROTECTED AAC, which Apple uses in the iTunes Music Store, is not an Open Standard, requires licensing (and the attendant fees) and is as "closed" as you claim WMA is.

In fact, there are hundreds of devices that use WMA. There are dozens that play back WMA with DRM. You can't say that of FairPlay Protected AAC.

Therefore, your argument is moot.

 

[singletrack]

SonicSelector

For those of you still in the Apple reality distortion field...

http://www.ondemanddistribution.com/eng/press/pressdetails.asp?id=261

OD2 use only Microsoft WMA DRM.

 

[rinseout]

Re: Microsoft, Apple and Digital Music Cooperation?

Originally posted by Macrumors
[Unfortunately, this may be both time consuming and lossy (potential loss of audio quality).

It definitely would be lossy, since "conversion" would require lossy compression of a de-(lossily) compressed stream.

Better to worry about hardware that can play both, if this is identified as a goal.

Even better to forget WMA compatibility for now and keep plugging AAC/iPod technology. Apple can still win this one.

 

[csimmons]

Re: Re: Re: I don't get it?

Originally posted by singletrack
YES THEY DO.

Microsoft run the MSN Music Club with OD2.com and have been running a European music store since last August.

Obviously this doesn't register on the grand scheme of things as it's not USA-ian but OD2/Microsoft have been quietly signing up European music companies and licencing their technology to other music stores in Europe for some time.

Apple are way behind in Europe, again.

So what?

According to the Register, iTMS sold three times as many downloads in a week than MSN Music Club/OD2.com sold in a year.

iTMS, when it hits Europe, will BLOW EVERYONE ELSE AWAY, if only because of the goo-gobs of positive international press.

 

[frankly]

Originally posted by singletrack
AFAIK, the iPod has no DRM in it at all. When you copy DRM'd songs to it in iTunes, the Fairplay DRM part is removed by iTunes. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

The DRM only relates to your Mac/PC, not your player.

I don't have an iPod so I can't test this theory. There was a quote by Phil Schiller saying that the DRM was built into iTunes so this may have some validity. The question is, does the DRM get stripped as the songs are transferred to the iPod OR does the iPod simply ignore the DRM???

Does anyone that has an iPod want to test the theory? Is so, copy some iTunes music store songs onto your iPod and then use the Terminal (or a free program) to transfer those songs back to your Mac and see if they are still protected.

Later, Frank

 

[frankly]

Originally posted by Foocha
Actually, whilst BeOS is not UNIX, it could be said that it was derived from UNIX (XINU) - it has a lot in common with UNIX.

No, it could be said that it was inspired by XINU. You can't say UNIX (XINU) as if they are one in the same.

XINU is an acronym that stands for:

Xinu
Is
Not
Unix

so to act like it is UNIX is silly.

Later, Frank

 

[NavyIntel007]

Originally posted by ITR 81
I say why doesn't MS kill it's WMA and just start using AAC only.

It's more likely that Jesus would sit next to you in your living room.

 

[Wash!!]

I have an ipod 15gig

Originally posted by frankly
I don't have an iPod so I can't test this theory. There was a quote by Phil Schiller saying that the DRM was built into iTunes so this may have some validity. The question is, does the DRM get stripped as the songs are transferred to the iPod OR does the iPod simply ignore the DRM???

Does anyone that has an iPod want to test the theory? Is so, copy some iTunes music store songs onto your iPod and then use the Terminal (or a free program) to transfer those songs back to your Mac and see if they are still protected.

Later, Frank

The DMR stays with the song no matter where it is I know cause I try to copy one song out of my ipod to my brothers ibook and after I copied it ask me to authenticate the song with my user/password when I try it told me that my 3 computer limit was used and I have to unauthorized one for the song to work with the ibook.

Cheers

 

[scat999999]

Apple is being smart. They don't want to be the Betamax of portable players.

Most of you probably aren't old enough to remember the VCR wars of the early 80s. Sony's Beta was clearly the better format, but it was Sony's way or the highway. JVC on the otherhand was like WMP, not as good but widely available to anyone that wanted to license it. Try to find a Beta machine now.

 

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by Foocha
Actually, whilst BeOS is not UNIX, it could be said that it was derived from UNIX (XINU) - it has a lot in common with UNIX.

In fact, way back when, I seem to recall reading the NT was derived from UNIX as well, although clearly you wouldn't call it UNIX.

NT is "based off" (as in, designed in large part by the same team that designed) VMS, not Unix. Microsoft stole the BSD networking layer (because BSD gave a bit too liberal of a license which allows MS to sell what BSD gave away), but that's about it for Unix in NT.

NT really isn't "based off" VMS either, though. Yes, it borrows concepts and conventions from previous OS's, but that's to be expected from any "new" program.

 

[Dreadnought]

I sure don't hope that this true. WMA can go into the trash ASAP!

 

[sethypoo]

Is is possible for the iPod to say, play both AAC and WMA formats? Or is there a physical block to this, other than DRM's and MS and Apple's qualms?

 

[Fukui]

Originally posted by awulf
What ever is going to happen, if it involves Microsoft, then Microsoft will probably come out better in this deal than Apple.

I don't recal scully/amellio was still working at apple?

 

[jettredmont]

Originally posted by Stolid
On the Apple vs Microsoft debate:
Please, could some of you guys grow up? Microsoft doesn't make money of WMA nor does apple make money off of AAC. It's a *format* for crying out loud.

Yes, it's a format. But, control of the format buys three major advantages:

1) Format licensing fees (more an MS concern than an Apple concern; not sure how much if anything Apple gets from AAC licensing ... Fairplay may be licensed though).

2) Format control gives leverage to OS control. If MS controls the music format 99% of all users have archived their music in, then 99% of all users can never switch to a non-MS OS (after, that is, Microsoft gains sufficient market domination to kill or cripple their OS X port).

3) Format control gives considerable hardware market control as well. This is where Apple makes the short-term big bucks as we all know.

I'm aware of past problems where MS was hesitant to give out Word's .doc format but people figured it out anyway; when you know what information is there finding how they put it there is generally not too difficult.

Really? Even OpenOffice.org has trouble reading Word documents and reliably creating new Word-format documents. And forget macros: no one is even thinking of supporting VBA macros.

Microsoft's control of the Word .doc format, which continues to this day, is their primary defense of their OS marketshare.

On the Unix OS debate:
To say an modern OS doesn't take some queues from UNIX would by silly; but there are also many ways to do things differently. It's like the automobile, most cars have signs of the model T but have obviously better features. I know some people that would call WinNT a UNIX system without blinking, I know others that are adament that MacOSX and Linux *aren't* UNIX.

True. But, Linux and OS X are a lot closer to the classical Unix design than Windows is.

I can take most Unix-based applications and port them to Mac/Linux (using X-Windows, not native toolkits, if they were originally X applications) in about 1% of the time it would take to port the same code over to Windows. This is because OS X and Linux are, at a certain level at least, designed with Unix-ish features (and POSIX compliance) in mind, whereas NT and certainly 9x Windows are not.

 

[rjwill246]

Apple's behind

Apple are way behind in Europe, again.

Yes, but it's not of their doing. And the European services are not iTMS by a long shot!

 

[Snowy_River]

Originally posted by l008com
"Something's wrong with my computer"...
"Yeah, its a dell"

While I like poking fun at Dells (aka 'Dulls') as much as the next Mac user, in all honesty, they aren't bad machines. I'd say a better version of your quote would be

"Something's wrong with my computer"...
"Yeah, its running Windows"

After all, a Dell running Linux is actually a pretty decent machine...

As to the DRM issue...

I think that it's good news to hear that they are talking. I can't imagine that Apple initiated the talks, so that would mean the MS is aware of how tenuous their position is. What I'd really like to see is more players being produced with the capability of playing AAC and pAAC.

 

[synergy]

Re: Apple is being smart. They don't want to be the Betamax of portable players.

Originally posted by scat999999
Most of you probably aren't old enough to remember the VCR wars of the early 80s. Sony's Beta was clearly the better format, but it was Sony's way or the highway. JVC on the otherhand was like WMP, not as good but widely available to anyone that wanted to license it. Try to find a Beta machine now.

One need not be old enough to remember. Just old enough to use a search engine on the internet.

AAC is widely available to anyone who wants to license it. It is made by Dolby Labs also known for Dolby Pro Logic, Dolby Digital.

Microsoft is trying to cram WMA down everyone's throat.

The whole VHS Beta thing does not compare here.
Just ask HP and Real who have licensed AAC.

 

[X86BSD]

Originally posted by jettredmont
NT is "based off" (as in, designed in large part by the same team that designed) VMS, not Unix. Microsoft stole the BSD networking layer (because BSD gave a bit too liberal of a license which allows MS to sell what BSD gave away), but that's about it for Unix in NT.

NT really isn't "based off" VMS either, though. Yes, it borrows concepts and conventions from previous OS's, but that's to be expected from any "new" program.

Oh for christs sakes. I'm so sick of stupid moronic comments like "Microsoft stole the BSD networking layer (because BSD gave a bit too liberal of a license which allows MS to sell what BSD gave away)"

So which is it?? They stole it? Or they used code which was G-I-V-E-N A-W-A-Y??

You GPL/Linux hosers really annoy me. You have no concept at all what "free" is.
BSD code is *GIVEN AWAY*. Repeat after me. Given.... Away.
You can't steal what someone GIVES you.
If we didn't WANT people to use our code we would slap the GPL or some other restrictive viral license on it.
</Annoyed>

Second MS BSD networking code came from a *company* that MS bought. That company just happened to have been using BSD licensed network code. Big Friggin Deal. That is what BSD code is there for. To be used. By anyone. For any reason. We're not interested in dictating usage of that code to people. We are only interested in getting that code into as many hands as possible. To further quality code use across the board. Not just for selective people that agree with a socialist philosophy. If you don't like the BSDL, fine don't use it. But stop spreading total garbage like "You stole freely available code that was given away!"
It makes you look like a FSF monkey.

 

[singletrack]

Re: Apple's behind

Originally posted by rjwill246


Yes, but it's not of their doing. And the European services are not iTMS by a long shot!

OD2 have licences with 5 major labels in Europe. Apple do not.

OD2 are a tiny small company ran by Peter Gabriel and what was once a small 3d graphics software company. Apple are one of the worlds biggest computer makers, own the largest online store and have billions of cash.

Sorry, but the 'not their fault' thing bears no grounding in reality. Their strategy has been lame from the start.

Incidentally, the OD2 infrastructure will work with AAC files and Apple's DRM. They could have been up and running in Europe off the back of OD2 months ago.

 

[warmd]

"There's a lot of buzz going around about how to bridge the gap to create a seamless experience. But there are some tough issues with that," says Dave Fester, GM of Microsoft's Windows Digital Media division. "We collectively need to do the right thing for the consumer."

Uncle Fester, if you really wanna do the right thing for the consumer.. give the stockholders back their money and call it a day (to paraphrase M. Dell on Apple)!

Microsoft are such soft and fuzzy care bears for the consumer when it suits them, aren't they?