'Month of Kernel Bugs' Ends, First Adware for Mac OS X?

[MacinDoc]

I have to agree with a lot of the people here who are concerned with security. Part of the reason OS X seemed so secure was because no one tested it. Now that we have Intel chips and a growing market share, vulnerabilities are being exploited. The day that I have to go out and buy virus protection for OS X is the day I consider going back to Windows. Vista looks like OS X so switching wouldn't be as big a pain.

I'm sorry, which of these vulnerabilities has been exploited?

 

[RacerX]

People, the single worst thing that the Mac community faces in the area of security is upon us right now...

Little security experts who cry exploit.​

Thanks to the media jumping at anything that looks like it could be a security problem with Mac OS X, we now have security experts who are willing to make half-baked claims to draw attention to themselves. But even more frightening is the fact that the Mac community isn't a target because it is a good target or an easy target... no, we are a target because it is the most notable target these days.

So, how do we fix this?

Frankly, I don't know.

The security experts are going to call anyone who questions their work names, and they seem bent on avoiding any consultation with real Mac experts before issuing press releases. I would have thought that these types of Pons & Fleischmann tactics would have died out on their own, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Part of the problem is that erroneous reports aren't being covered as widely as the initial claims.

The other problem is that even after real, working exploits start showing up in the wild, we are a long ways off from being anywhere near where the Windows community is today. In fact, we'd be a long ways off from where the Mac community was at the peak of it's virus period (how many here actually recall those days?).

The only thing I can suggest (which I doubt anyone will follow) is to avoid the hysteria. When a real threat emerges, you'll most likely hear about it long before you are actually in any danger from it.

 

[50548]

I agree with the few others that are concerned about this.

Our Mac OS innocence is coming to an end. Part of this is due to the growing market share, and popularity in the Operating system. The other issue I feel that is of concern, is the new challenge this OS provides for Script kiddies, and bored coders. If you have an ego, and want to get your name out, why not do what hasn't been done before, as opposed to doing what everyone else does ?

This is going to be a growing trend, and the amount of Mac Haters in the wild is quite high! Once code tricks and secrets start to get out, it is only a matter of time before OS X is targeted by thousands, much like XP!

Apple has time to take this very seriously, and work to keep this system tight and secure! Hopefully this is going to be a big part of the focus on Leopard, but only developers will really know this!


These current headlines aside

1. Pay attention to what warning messages pop up when browsing the web.

2. Only download and install software from sources that you trust, and if you do trust them, take an extra moment to think about why you trust them, and if you really need to install that piece of 3rd party software!

3. Keep your firewalls on if possible

4. Don't permanently unlock preferences, folders, or other security areas on your system using your keychain, unless you really need to do so!


There are others, however that is a good baseline to follow for some minimal security checks and balances!

And here we go again with the "security through obscurity" myth...please, don't spread such things again, because they are not true.

The mere fact that some kernel vulnerabilities were discovered in an event SPECIFICALLY devoted to finding such things does not mean our OS X is unsafe. It is by far the MOST secure system out there, with 40 million or 400 million users, and nobody has been able to prove the opposite so far.

Besides, some (or many) of the arguments posed by this "anonymous" LMH were already debunked by other security analysts. Just an example:

"Apple DMG flaw not so serious? SecurityFocus reports on the controversy surrounding a disk image denial of service potentiality in Mac OS X. "While the common wisdom in the security world is that crashes are exploitable, Mac programmer Alastair Houghton published his kernel-code analysis showing that this particular vulnerability is not. "In fact, all (the MoKB) has found here is a bug that causes a kernel panic," Houghton wrote in his analysis. "Not a security flaw. Not a memory corruption bug. Just a completely orderly kernel panic." Following the analysis, Secunia downgraded their severity rating of the vulnerability from "highly critical" to "not critical." Several other companies still have the vulnerability rated as critical. The actions follow a heated exchange between Houghton and the founder of the Month of Kernel Bugs (MoKB) Project, a person who identifies himself as only L.M.H. Because of the exchange, Houghton decided to spend three days analyzing the issue and had his final analysis checked by Thomas Ptacek, a security researcher and founder of Matasano Security."

http://www.macfixit.com/

So please...before spreading more FUD in this forum, check the facts and take some time before believing some strange guys pretending to be specialists...

 

[longofest]

The mere fact that some kernel vulnerabilities were discovered in an event SPECIFICALLY devoted to finding such things does not mean our OS X is unsafe. It is by far the MOST secure system out there, with 40 million or 400 million users, and nobody has been able to prove the opposite so far.

The guy heading up the MOKB thing said that MacOSX's kernel (XNU) was the easiest kernel to crack. If that makes you feel safe, then go ahead and feel safe, but for me, even though I use extremely good security practices and networking measures, I still would rather have Apple get serious aboud security and start hardening their system more so that guys who are only fuzzing and stress testing can't come up with 10 vulnerabilities in a month.

The only thing I can suggest (which I doubt anyone will follow) is to avoid the hysteria. When a real threat emerges, you'll most likely hear about it long before you are actually in any danger from it.

Funny thing is that I don't see anyone in this forum going into hysteria about this other than the people saying that "this is a load of FUD." Why is it such a shock that MacOSX can be vulnerable? No, it hasn't been exploited to any large extent, but vulnerabilities open up the door to exploits, and the only thing that is keeping us away from having exploits happen is our market share. You may not want to hear that, but as long as we are below 10% of the market, people simply aren't going to target our vulnerabilities, but are going to target MS's vulnerabilities.

The problem of course, is that our Market Share is going up, and so we will likely be a larger target for hackers. So if these vulnerabilities keep popping up in this frequency, that becomes a major issue for the exploitation problem as time goes on.

 

[J Radical]

No software is bulletproof

OS X isn't perfect, and it's unreasonable to expect that it will never ever be breached.

That said, Apple have done a great job thus far. My worry isn't so much individual (trivial?) exploits, but rather that OS X would go down the XP route and require constant patching. The last thing Apple needs is to have to fight fires in the same way Microsoft has had to with XP.

Security is a key selling point for the mac platform and it is essential that Apple maintain their advantage with the vastly improved Vista fast approaching.

I hope Apple will address these problems with the urgency they merit.

 

[Uragon]

Okay, now I might end up being branded as an Apple apologist for this, but this thread is bugging me.

Really, people, lighten up! It's like the corner of the carpet is smoking a little bit and people start shouting about how the whole house is about to burn down..

No, I won't brand you as an Apple apologist nor do I consider most here in the forum as mac zealots. For me, it's always just a matter of time someone will find vulnerbilities or hacks in any OS (Mac/Win) and for either good reasons or just for being the first..

 

[Grakkle]

I'll say it before, and I'll say it again, this is a critical time for Apple and it's no time to be an Apple apologist. It's time to hold Apple's feet to the fire. Being soft on them isn't helping them. It's just enabling them not to realize their full potential.

OSX is good, but that's no reason for complacency. If Apple doesn't work out these bugs (and I know of more than a few irritating ones, besides the kernal vulnerabilities) it's not going to remain a quality product.

 

[gnasher729]

i don't understand why everyone is ignoring this guys' post. i'm not a computer engineer, so can someone with the right knowledge explain this a bit more? is it really adware or just a bug?

I'll try to explain this: Someone can create a Disk Image File that is intentionally corrupt. They can put it on a webpage from where you could download it, and if you do that, Safari will try to mount the disk image file and then Things Go Wrong. But nothing at all can happen if you don't visit that webpage.

Now Apple can't do anything about that corrupted Disk Image File. The best that Apple can do is try to mount it, figure out that it is corrupted, and tell you that it is corrupted. This is what should have happened, it didn't happen, and that is a bug that Apple should fix. The question is: What damage can happen?

In this case, it has been examined, and the result is that there will be a Kernel Panic. That means your Macintosh will crash. Nothing else can possibly happen, the only possible result is a Kernel Panic. Sounds bad, but all that happens is that you have to restart your computer. About the same as if I unplugged the power cable of your Macintosh. The same thing will happen again if you try to mount the disk image again, or if you go to the same wegpage again. But you wouldn't do that, right? And if you visit the webpage again, you will learn quickly not to do that, right?

The important thing is, there is no security risk. Nobody can use this to install a virus or adware on your computer. They can use it to crash your computer - once if you are clever, twice if you are not quite so clever, but not more often. They can't do anything but crash the computer.

 

[50548]

The guy heading up the MOKB thing said that MacOSX's kernel (XNU) was the easiest kernel to crack. If that makes you feel safe, then go ahead and feel safe, but for me, even though I use extremely good security practices and networking measures, I still would rather have Apple get serious aboud security and start hardening their system more so that guys who are only fuzzing and stress testing can't come up with 10 vulnerabilities in a month.

The "guy" heading up that thing is sketchy, to say the least...instead of showing yourself as "LHM", be a man and publish your identity as well as your corporate background...one of his points was already debunked, more will follow...he seems much more like someone looking for publicity and page hits than a serious researcher, as others have said in the specialized media. So for me, someone who "says that the OS X kernel is the easiest" is as reliable as someone who says that "oompa-loompa" is a OS X virus in the wild...

I couldn't care less about its remarks, notwithstanding the obvious need for any company to secure its OS as much as possible.

For more clarification and less FUD: http://alastairs-place.net/

 

[RacerX]

Funny thing is that I don't see anyone in this forum going into hysteria about this other than the people saying that "this is a load of FUD." Why is it such a shock that MacOSX can be vulnerable?

It isn't a shock that Mac OS X is vulnerable. What is shocking is that it is front page news to people.

Why is this even note worthy? Why is this even NEWS WORTHY?

Why cover what are (to most Mac users) non-issues? More importantly, why aid the PC press in making cracking a Mac a limelight subject?

Misery may love company, but do we really need to add to the frenzied coverage that this subject currently has?

And oddly (or maybe not), the people most likely to fall for the hype on all this are former PC users who (wrongly) believe that any level of malicious software is equivalent to what ever the current level is for Windows (where malicious software is actually a profession).

You aren't a former (current) PC user, are you longofest? It would explain a lot.

No, it hasn't been exploited to any large extent, but vulnerabilities open up the door to exploits, and the only thing that is keeping us away from having exploits happen is our market share. You may not want to hear that, but as long as we are below 10% of the market, people simply aren't going to target our vulnerabilities, but are going to target MS's vulnerabilities.

The problem of course, is that our Market Share is going up, and so we will likely be a larger target for hackers. So if these vulnerabilities keep popping up in this frequency, that becomes a major issue for the exploitation problem as time goes on.

Could you please tell me when the Mac community made up 10% of market share?

Why wasn't market share the magic shield 10 or 15 years ago that it seems to be today?



Well, while we wait for longofest to figure out the obvious, we should keep in mind what is really currently saving the Mac community from attacks like we once had... lack of a means of propagation.

Fortunately Apple is fully aware (even if some people aren't) that if an effective means of propagating malicious software to and from Macs pops up, that is the door that hackers are waiting for. That is why Apple watches any and every hacking attempt at these contests.

And of course Apple (like most of us who have used Macs for more than a few years) is aware that market share has nothing to do with any of this. Once an effective means of delivery is available, hackers aren't going to consult any market research before putting it to good use.


Maybe this is a good case where shooting the messenger is a good thing. If the press (both Mac and PC) wouldn't make mountains out of potential ant hills, we wouldn't have people like Mayner, Ellch and LHM jumping the gun on going to the press before having their work properly checked. In fact, these guys are pushing a disturbing trend of giving press releases before checking their work.


We get vapor exploits and they get their names in headlines. Does anyone else see the problem with this?

 

[50548]

Up to the point, RacerX...I am tired of these "security warnings" that carry little more than vaporware and a thirst for publicity and hacker-like "fame"...

If a kernel panic is a "serious issue", think again...and go Vista...and please, no market share arguments anymore...we have probably more than 50 million Apple users out there...I am sure a few hackers are still trying hard to make a virus in the wild for them.

 

[Doctor Q]

In this case, it has been examined, and the result is that there will be a Kernel Panic.

The important thing is, there is no security risk. Nobody can use this to install a virus or adware on your computer. They can use it to crash your computer - once if you are clever, twice if you are not quite so clever, but not more often. They can't do anything but crash the computer.

Mac OS X is so stable that I am perfectly comfortable working for an hour in between saving my open files. If I was likely to run into websites that purposely exploited a flaw to crash my Mac, I'd have to change my habits and live more defensively.

Sure, losing work would be my fault for not saving after each keystroke, but I'd still blame the website. For example, suppose it was a site pretending to take a political poll, but if you voted against their favored choice, they punished you with a system crash. Even if this is not a security concern, it's a concern, and I'd like to see it fixed.

These types of reports don't panic me and I'm glad that Apple does pay attention to most bugs and security concerns. I don't expect them to avoid all glitches, only to make a reasonable effort when programming their O.S. and applications, and to fix problems that are later revealed.

 

[840quadra]

Perhaps you missed me saying "Now, certainly, these issues should be looked at with all due diligence"? Again, I agree that Apple needs to keep on top of these vulnerabilities. With a little luck, we'll see a new security update within the next week or two that will patch most, if not all, of these. My objection was not to wanting Apple to fix these vulnerabilities. My objection was to the tone that suggested that if we didn't mount a public outcry, Apple would ignore these altogether, and by January 1st there'd be as many viruses on OS X as on Windows. It's the alarmist nature of so many of the posts here that I found objectionable. Give Apple the credit it's due, and trust that they are working on patching all of these vulnerabilities right now. How hard it is to patch them will determine how long we'll have to wait for the security updates.

I now understand what you are saying and agree.

Apple has done a good job, and I have faith that they are doing everything they can to keep their OS secure. I am also happy to hear the random bits of news that they are working with other groups to keep their system secure.

I just want them to keep this focus, grow on it, and keep there image of being a more secure system than the other side of the fence. I have faith in them being able to do this, and this is why I have kept purchasing their software and products!

And here we go again with the "security through obscurity" myth...please, don't spread such things again, because they are not true.

The mere fact that some kernel vulnerabilities were discovered in an event SPECIFICALLY devoted to finding such things does not mean our OS X is unsafe. It is by far the MOST secure system out there, with 40 million or 400 million users, and nobody has been able to prove the opposite so far.

Besides, some (or many) of the arguments posed by this "anonymous" LMH were already debunked by other security analysts. Just an example:

"Apple DMG flaw not so serious? SecurityFocus reports on the controversy surrounding a disk image denial of service potentiality in Mac OS X. "While the common wisdom in the security world is that crashes are exploitable, Mac programmer Alastair Houghton published his kernel-code analysis showing that this particular vulnerability is not. "In fact, all (the MoKB) has found here is a bug that causes a kernel panic," Houghton wrote in his analysis. "Not a security flaw. Not a memory corruption bug. Just a completely orderly kernel panic." Following the analysis, Secunia downgraded their severity rating of the vulnerability from "highly critical" to "not critical." Several other companies still have the vulnerability rated as critical. The actions follow a heated exchange between Houghton and the founder of the Month of Kernel Bugs (MoKB) Project, a person who identifies himself as only L.M.H. Because of the exchange, Houghton decided to spend three days analyzing the issue and had his final analysis checked by Thomas Ptacek, a security researcher and founder of Matasano Security."

http://www.macfixit.com/

So please...before spreading more FUD in this forum, check the facts and take some time before believing some strange guys pretending to be specialists...

Thanks for that rambling diatribe.

Please, can you tell me where I said that I support the myth that Apple is (or is not) holding operating system information from it's developers, in order to promote a more secure operating system?

Please also find a post where I stated that we should seek out virus protection, beg developers for adaware removing programs, and lock down our systems from anyone being able to access them.

I simply posted that our little world is growing in popularity with those that want to make it less easy, or stable for us. If you also took the time to actually read my other posts, you would understand that I am not overly worried, however I don't think we (or Apple) should let our guard down.

Further, the advice I posted is not my own, it is good common sense for anyone (on any operating system, on any platform) should follow to help reduce the risk of getting something nasty, or damaging (including simple code bugs that are commonly confused with viruses) on their system.

The sad fact remains, no matter how much we debate this topic on these forums, the people that continually get their systems infected in the Windows world, will most likely have that same problem with any OS they use if there are viruses for it. The issue is most often the end user, not the security of the system they are on.

 

[shen]

and so far, just like every other "story" of this kind, this one is turning out to be more FUD than substance.

.....someone wake me when they post something that matters.

 

[SeaFox]

I voted "yes" becuase I'm concerned what this will do PR-wise for Apple, not so much about actual security concern. "LMH" may claim he's not an Apple-hater but a few things poke out from the interview:

The Linux kernel takes little time to break. I'm more familiar with the code and thus it also takes less time to isolate issues. OS X kernel (XNU) takes less time but depending on the area you're checking, debugging and isolation may require a bit more time (if you take into account that AppleTalk source code is almost unreadable and totally deprecated) [...] I didn't have much time left for working on Microsoft Windows but I've received the most helpful feedback from the MSRC people on potentially interesting stuff to check.

What I read from this passage is:

• LMH is familar with the Linux Kernal.
• LMH found Linux and MacOSX easy is to break (possibly because of his familarity with the Linux kernal).
• LMH spent the majority of their time working on Linux and MacOSX.

Here's what I infer from the interview:

1. If LMH is so familar with Linux and found OSX so "easy to crack", why was the amount of time he spent on them so dispropotionate compared to Windows?
2. Looks to me like he spent most of his time looking for bugs in Linux and MacOS since they would garner more press (See Macbook Wifi grandstanding).
3. LMH takes this oppurtunity to make a crack about AppleTalk code that has little to do with this topic.
4. LMH takes this oppertunity to point out that he had assistance from Micorsoft people in looking into Windows, which happens to be the platform he spent the least amount of time on. I don't think Microsoft would be particularly helpful in assisting someone in finding exploits to report when they were going to be compared to OSX and Linux by the organizer.

 

[hulugu]

I voted "yes" becuase I'm concerned what this will do PR-wise for Apple, not so much about actual security concern. "LMH" may claim he's not an Apple-hater but a few things poke out from the interview:



What I read from this passage is:

• LMH is familar with the Linux Kernal.
• LMH found Linux and MacOSX easy is to break (possibly because of his familarity with the Linux kernal).
• LMH spent the majority of their time working on Linux and MacOSX.

Here's what I infer from the interview:

1. If LMH is so familar with Linux and found OSX so "easy to crack", why was the amount of time he spent on them so dispropotionate compared to Windows?
2. Looks to me like he spent most of his time looking for bugs in Linux and MacOS since they would garner more press (See Macbook Wifi grandstanding).
3. LMH takes this oppurtunity to make a crack about AppleTalk code that has little to do with this topic.
4. LMH takes this oppertunity to point out that he had assistance from Micorsoft people in looking into Windows, which happens to be the platform he spent the least amount of time on. I don't think Microsoft would be particularly helpful in assisting someone in finding exploits to report when they were going to be compared to OSX and Linux by the organizer.

This is an interesting post. The Appletalk thing was especially silly.

 

[SeaFox]

I for one, welcome our new Adware overloards.

-1, Overrated

 

[twoodcc]

well i'm not very worried

 

[illegalprelude]

How do you know they are not on it? You don't right? The source of these reports is the people who want to sell you their security software. They capitalize on our fear. The author notes he spent most of his time on Mac and Linux. Very little time was spent on Windows/Vista. Well, that makes sense if you are trying to sell software. Everyone already installs it on Windows. No sales opportunities there. So, go scare yourself a new market with the people who do not need it. It even works better if you can create some mistrust amongst the user base. Just plant the seeds of doubt the manufacturers are unwilling, or unable to protect them. You are their savior.

I do not have a Pollyanna view on this. I have no doubts that threats exist and an aggressive, on-going effort is crucial. But, the real solution is to fight this crime with the seriousness it deserves. That means mandatory prison sentences, equal liability for facilitation and for profiteering, etc.

dear lord, thank you! somebody else with some common sense. Its like all different repots come out about anything related and people go up in arms about it but never pay attention to who did the research. Just because its "published" does it somehow make it fact? What did the publisher have to gain from this? More so then often, you will note that the report that came out that says "chewing gum premotes healthy teeth" is indeed sponsered and funded and done by Stride Gum. Surprise! Same in this case, lets premote a few security flaws and every single news site will pick up on it by 3 days and bam, now we can advertise our Antivirus.

 

[mklos]

Router, firewall I feel OK.

I hate to tell you this, but they are really no help when it comes to spyware. I don't know what you were referring to there, but with adware/spyware they won't help you one bit. Adware comes mostly through port 80, which is the port the internet comes through. So if you want, you can set your router/firewall to block port 80, but then you don't have any internet.

That being said, someone could figure out how to get around a firewall. As with any software based firewall, there are vulnerabilities in it, even the OS X one. A router (hardware based), well, thats a little different.

But there are things Apple could do to make OS X more secure. Hopefully Leopard will patch a bunch of holes and make it even harder for adware and anything else to get in. Then release patches for Panther/Tiger. They've done this in the past with Tiger security enhancements and then releasing a patch for Panther.

I believe SecurityWorks (or whatever they're called), works with Apple now instead of against them to aid in finding "holes" in the system. This is the way it should be. They should be hiring people/companies to find holes in the OS and to report them exclusively to Apple ONLY so they can be fixed.

We Mac users are way to secure with ourselves and one day its going to bite us in the butt bigtime. A lot of us throw the talk to the hand up when OS X starts getting bashed about its insecurity. This is a bad thing and some of us need to shape up. These very people will be the first to bitch and complain about their Mac getting spyware and/or viruses when it happens. And of course, its all Apple's fault!

 

[cloud 9]

This is the summary from that page...


I looked over his code analysis and I agree with his conclusion about it not being possible to corrupt memory (hence not possible to inject code). So it is at worst a denial of service type attack.

merci beaucoup for you explanation and gnasher you too

 

[spicyapple]

Judging by the progression in the poll numbers, looks like FUD is gaining traction.

 

[SMM]

People, the single worst thing that the Mac community faces in the area of security is upon us right now...

Little security experts who cry exploit.​

Thanks to the media jumping at anything that looks like it could be a security problem with Mac OS X, we now have security experts who are willing to make half-baked claims to draw attention to themselves. But even more frightening is the fact that the Mac community isn't a target because it is a good target or an easy target... no, we are a target because it is the most notable target these days.

So, how do we fix this?

Frankly, I don't know.

...........<text omitted>............

The only thing I can suggest (which I doubt anyone will follow) is to avoid the hysteria. When a real threat emerges, you'll most likely hear about it long before you are actually in any danger from it.

I am with you 100%. Every time one of these 'expert reports' comes out, I see a plethora of panic posts following it. The common theme is; 'we're screwed, someone save us, why doesn't Apple do something!

I think the majority of the security reports are motivated by ego, or most likely, profit. When companies like Network Associates funds a security vulnerability study, it is not done because they are a concerned, benevolent member of the technical community. They are out to make a buck. What they promote is fear. What they sell is reassurance. Nice gig.

 

[SMM]

Judging by the progression in the poll numbers, looks like FUD is gaining traction.

Does that surprise you, or is it just a comment? Right now, MS is in the highest stakes game it has been in for many year, maybe ever.

The mighty giant has been pantsed. The cut-throat business practices of the past are not only well-known, but are also being scrutinized.

MS does not have the best PC OS/Desktop and that is now a known fact by many.

The business community, long a MS stronghold, has grown weary of paying predatory licensing fees for MS backoffice and the desktop. MS does not want to give this up. They want to keep their stranglehold on this market. Purchasing managers are taking a hard look at alternatives, like Apple.

Vista...so much is riding on Vista. it absolutely has to succeed for them. If after five years, with all of its' vast resources, Vista cannot beat OSX, Redmond's reputation, and credibility, is going to suffer badly. The floodgates may open. The wildcard is Leopard.

MS could not delay Vista any longer. But, Redmond knows Apple has the last play. Steve just has to love the position he is in. MS has to play their hand and he can come in and trump it at will. At most, Vista could draw Windows even with Tiger, although most thing this is fanciful thinking on their part. MS is definitely scared by what is coming next (and when).

So, we are going to see even more of this message board trolling and FUD. There are many obvious 'newbie' troll posts. But, I am also seeing some 'moles' trolling too. Some of them showed up many months ago and are now regulars. What they are doing is providing newbie support.

The newbie comes on with a troll post, and bam, he gets a regular, or two to give legitimacy to the disinformation. The thread is off and running. Another tactic I notice is the thread subject troll. The subject line is written to be very negative, but then the first post is very much toned down, sometimes even apologetic, "Sorry for venting, I know this is rare...", that type of stuff. The damage is done and no one is aware it was a disinformation attack.

The stakes are high and MS has been found guilty in court of doing the things I am describing. This is not the ranting of a paranoid. I happen to know a considerable amount about disinformation and the tactics involved. With a little work, you can see the same things. Look at the post history for those making anti-Apple posts. The critical eye can discern the inconsistencies in what they write.

 

[840quadra]

So, we are going to see even more of this message board trolling and FUD. There are many obvious 'newbie' troll posts. But, I am also seeing some 'moles' trolling too. Some of them showed up many months ago and are now regulars. What they are doing is providing newbie support.

The newbie comes on with a troll post, and bam, he gets a regular, or two to give legitimacy to the disinformation. The thread is off and running. Another tactic I notice is the thread subject troll. The subject line is written to be very negative, but then the first post is very much toned down, sometimes even apologetic, "Sorry for venting, I know this is rare...", that type of stuff. The damage is done and no one is aware it was a disinformation attack.

The stakes are high and MS has been found guilty in court of doing the things I am describing. This is not the ranting of a paranoid. I happen to know a considerable amount about disinformation and the tactics involved. With a little work, you can see the same things. Look at the post history for those making anti-Apple posts. The critical eye can discern the inconsistencies in what they write.

I can understand the feelings behind what you are saying, and do appreciate that point of view. I however however, am not sure that I can really see anyone doing hopeless FUD spreading on this particular thread. You seem to be (like a few others) concerned that those of us who have security concerns, have given up on Apple, and want to work with these 3rd party groups to provide us with security solutions. I don't see many people on this thread with that attitude, I see concerned users like myself, that want to see that Apple heads up security themselves.

To me the poll and question "After the Month of Kernel Bugs, are you concerned about Mac OS X security?" was interpreted by me as ..

Yes I am concerned about Mac OS X security. Meaning, I am concerned about my operating system security in general.

For whatever reason, I believe that anyone that voted Yes, is being interpreted by some people as it meaning "Yes I am concerned about Mac OS X security, as it is a hopelessly unsecured operating system, god save us, the world is going to end!".

Perhaps a few of the people who said yes may think that, but don't assume all of us are like that! Please feel free to look into my post history, not that it is any of your business anyway. You will find that I am a true Apple and Mac fan through and through!