More Double Standards

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by skunk, Jul 11, 2004.

  1. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #1

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3884887.stm
    Does this apply to the US too? I think we should be told.
     
  2. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #2
    When the issue could be my living or my dying, "International Law" can get stuck where the sun doesn't shine. Any other law, for that matter.

    'Rat

    "It's better to be judged by twelve than carried by six."--old cop saying.
     
  3. Thanatoast macrumors 6502a

    Thanatoast

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    #3
    Law was developed in order to make it easier for people to live in large groups. If everyone follows the same rules, then society has a better chance of surviving, and every dispute does not have to end in a fight.

    Imagine a hundred and ninety people living in a town with no laws. With no authorities and with no leaders besides the biggest guy with the most weapons in his basement arsenal. This is the way the Bush administration sees the world. I, for one, think it's a poor way to live.
     
  4. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #4
    "Law was developed in order to make it easier for people to live in large groups. If everyone follows the same rules, then society has a better chance of surviving, and every dispute does not have to end in a fight."

    No argument. All very true. Trouble is, not everybody follows the same rules.

    What I've watched over some 56 years is the shift away from blaming those who started and have continued the violence, toward blaming the victims of this unending murder. The history of the Israeli/Arab conflict did not begin with various observers' coming to awareness...

    'Rat
     
  5. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #5
    Since the US played a major part in drawing up International Law, and often professes to act in its name, don't you think it would be slightly more consistent to act according to its precepts?
     
  6. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #6
    Oh, the US has no problem w/ International Law...as long as it is written by and judged by our own interests. Obviously, we are the most moral and wise of Nations, as evinced by God's favourable will in making us the most powerful Nation on the planet. The US is the country of "Freedom" and "Liberty", powerful god-given concepts which transcend the need to play by any rules but those which serve us. If you disagree, you must not understand, or more likely be the enemy of these great Truths, and you are to be pitied, or marginalized, or put out of your misery...as you are either on our side, by our rules...or you are probably in bed with terrorists and your day of reckoning will soon come...


    here is my sarcasm 'o meter, you judge where this falls:

    No sarcasm[------------------------------------------------------]sarcastastic
     
  7. Thanatoast macrumors 6502a

    Thanatoast

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    #7
    Everyone may not play by the same rules, but that does not excuse us to throw out our own rule book. Nobody said is was gonna be easy being the good guys. Our own willingness to skirt accepted tradition and law only proves we are as corrupt as we are accused of being.

    In order to prove democracy works, we have to use democratic principles in resolving our conflicts. Otherwise, we prove democracy is just as weak and corrupt as any other system. Torture, lies, and invasion do not become the world's premier democracy. In other words, we have failed to uphold the principles we claim to follow, and we have been called on it.
     
  8. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #8
    "Torture, lies, and invasion do not become the world's premier democracy."

    I'm in full accord about the torture and lies. My views on invasion vary with circumstance.

    "In other words, we have failed to uphold the principles we claim to follow, and we have been called on it."

    Er, no. Israel is being fraudulently called upon to assist in its own suicide. See the opening post.

    'Rat
     
  9. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #9
    I support this right of Israel to exist as much as the next person, but I believe this statement is gross exaggeration of the situation as it actually exists on the ground. Certainly Israel is suffering from the constant reign of terrorism, but if anything threatens the existence state of Israel, it isn't the terrorism itself, but the way they've isolated themselves from world opinion by how they're dealing with it.
     
  10. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #10
    'Rat, my point in posting was to highlight the principles of the UN Charter and how the US has signally failed to observe them. Israel at least has an excuse.
     
  11. Flex macrumors newbie

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    #11
    How else should they deal with the terrorist that will actually stop the terrorism? Negotiating with Hamas is out of the question they already stated there shall be no peace until all of Israel is pushed out into the sea.
     
  12. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #12
    flex - your writing style and argument content seem a little familiar. have i seen you around here before?

    and what brings you to the MR political area?
     
  13. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #13
    You're being very sly about your accusation. ;)
     
  14. Sayhey macrumors 68000

    Sayhey

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  15. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #15
    :D
     
  16. Thanatoast macrumors 6502a

    Thanatoast

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    #16
    'Rat,

    Israel is being called upon to find a tenable solution to the palestinian problem. Building a giant wall does not contribute to resolving the deep issues dividing the two sides. It does, however, violate international law, which the relations between nations are based upon (for good reason, despite what W thinks), and it does put even more hardship on already poverty stricken palestinians. I assume you don't claim that every palestinian has a bomd strapped on and ready to blow?
     
  17. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #17
    "'Rat, my point in posting was to highlight the principles of the UN Charter and how the US has signally failed to observe them."

    Yes, well, I was trying to stick with the subject at hand, rather than a highjacking of the thread.

    "Israel at least has an excuse."

    My point exactly.

    Thanatoast, I'm fully aware that not all Palestinians are Goblins. IMO, most are trapped by the various terrorist groups such as Hamas and by decades of Arafat's intransigence. IMO, Flex is correct. The Palestinian militants have never, ever swerved from their desire for genocide.

    'Rat
     
  18. toontra macrumors 6502

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    #18
    Rat, if the wall is merely (as is repeatedly stated) to protect Israel from suicide bombings, why is it built on occupied territory and not on the boundary of their own undisputed border?

    Building it along the internationally agreed border would solve the security problem and remove most of the Arab/UN/world objections to what is seen as simply a further land-grab.
     
  19. mouchoir macrumors 6502a

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    #19

    I think that if they had obeyed UN sanctions in the first place, and built the wall on their border in the first place, instead of deep into the legally palestinian occupied west bank – making thousands homeless and cutting off entire villages and towns – then this ruling wouldn't have happened.

    Israel are constantly going against the UN and doing whatever they please in the name of 'terrorism'. They are well funded and supplied by the US to do this.


    The US will act 'multilaterally when possible, but unilaterally when necessary', President Clinton informed the United Nations in 1993.

    Unfortunately, the 'where necessary' often includes money rather than safety, and at the expense of other people.

    The problem with the US' relationship with the UN is that it has the power to go against it whenever it needs, and won't hesitate to do so, rendering it useless much of the time.
     
  20. mischief macrumors 68030

    mischief

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    #20
    Israel/Palestine Ruminations...

    Israel is, indeed abusing the "self defense" motif by building inside occupied territory.

    However...

    It's good to keep in mind the following tidbits:

    Yasser Arafat is a militant from Syria... He's not even Palisinian.

    Palestine has never been a recognized as a Nation. Native American Tribes have more recognition and internationally respected relevance.

    The Israeli people have been misrepresented as a variety of nasty things beginning with a naive series of letters written by Josephus Flavius. Hamas and other Anti-semitic groups have been using such misconceptions to attack both Jews as a group and Israel as a concept for as long as a millenium.

    Note: I'm not Jewish... I just do a lot of research.. ;)

    A real tragedy here is that with so much agression and hatred literally surrounding Israel we're seeing Likud and others resorting to exactly the kind of tactics that gained enough sympathy from the international community to create an Israeli state following WW2. Proof that with enough pressure you can become that which you oppose the most.

    There's also the perspective that Palestinians don't really have an option... Nearby nations are closed to them. In many respects these people are in a similar situation to Latino migrant workers: Hated on both sides of the border by some but indespensible to two economies; used and abused by the most despicable factions on both sides.
     
  21. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #21
    Oh yes it has: Philistia, settled by unsuccessful invaders of Egypt in c.1200BCE. The Jews of the time certainly recognized the Philistines. Anyway, what has recognition of statehood got to do with human rights?

    Aside from that quibble, I agree. :)
     
  22. mischief macrumors 68030

    mischief

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    #22
    spirit versus letter

    I'm glad you asked. (not like that was bait or anything ;))

    Though the Palestinians have every right to the same human rights as everyone else there's some legal complications. As an amalgamation of stateless refugees that refuse naturalization into Israel they have very few options. Arafat loved making it sound as if Palestine was a Nation at war and under invasion with/by Israel. If this were the case the provisions of the International Laws of Warfare would apply.... They don't. If Palestine were a Nation they'd have legal rights to self defence as outlined in international law. They don't.

    The bitch of the situation for the UN is that "The occupied territories" are a political DMZ. It's a piece of land that exists between Israel and Syria with no Nation attatched to it. As I recall it was all supposed to be Israel anyway.... It was a series of wars and treaties involving Syria and Egypt that created it in the first place.

    Imagine what life would be like if neither Mexico nor the USA would cop to juristiction over (say) the shanty villages on the US/Mexico border... to the extent that a 2-mile wide band of open land existed between the two countries.... Ridiculous!
     
  23. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    #23
    It sounds like you're saying that the Palestinians are stateless by choice.
     
  24. Griffon macrumors newbie

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    #24
    Isn't it true that a large number of them have passports from places like Egypt and Saudi Arabia? Yet they moved to the disputed territories. That sounds like by choice to me.
     
  25. mischief macrumors 68030

    mischief

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    #25
    Not Quite...

    I was referring to the various deals that were offerred over the years in which the "be a citizen or get the hell out" theme was repeatedly used. There were always nasty little lynchpins that made the deals poor options.
     

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