More of the Same

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by skunk, Apr 30, 2004.

  1. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
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    Republic of Ukistan
    #1
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3675215.stm

    Looks like it's not just your lot.

    What is the answer here? Whichever bunch of thugs we employ to carry out these "humanitarian" exercises, the sad truth remains that they are a bunch of thugs. How incredibly depressing.
    :(
     
  2. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2003
    Location:
    Dornbirn (Austria)
    #2

    really bad :( ...in the last 2-3 days the coalition can really be lucky with their censorship of the iraqi news.... i hope those responsible get their punishment....

    you just can't do this... this is just inhuman treatment...
     
  3. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    Apr 24, 2003
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    Colly-fornia
    #3
    Not only that, but if our justification for war is going to rest on humanitarian grounds we risk looking as misguided on that aspect as we did on WMD.
     
  4. skunk thread starter macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #4
    God what a mess! :mad: :(
    But at least it may shake up the polls. Not that it's much in the way of a silver lining.
     
  5. numediaman macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2004
    Location:
    Chicago (by way of SF)
    #5
    skunk, I just saw this on the BBC web site and was about to post it.

    This stuff is not new -- its just that now the pictures are getting into the hands of the media.

    I think has been caused by the fact that we have young, inexperienced troops over there who are falling into the trap of reacting to the car bombings and sniper attacks. In addition, morale has not been good ever since the troops learned they would be there for a long time. (I'm not talking about the recent extensions, but the fact that tours of duty have been too long for a while. In Vietnam, tours were measured in months. In WWII, troops were routinely taken off the front lines after weeks of active combat. In Iraq, the troops were told they could be there up to a year -- then recently it was extended even further.)
     
  6. Desertrat macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2003
    Location:
    Terlingua, Texas
    #6
    numediaman, I think it's less the length of time than the "changing the rules". When you're expecting some specific length of time for your tour, and then Oops! you're extended, it's a heavy hit.

    In WW II, you were in "for the duration". Many in the 1st Infantry Division, "The Big Red One", served from North Africa on to VE Day, with little of the rotation to rest areas that you mentioned. My father, with the 3rd, mentioned one stint of a week or so in a rear-area rest camp; he was in Europe in combat from August of '44 until the liberation of the town of Dortmund with its work camp.

    The Korean tour for the Army was 16 months; for the Marines, one year. All services' Vietnam tours were for one year.

    The vast majority of the men in our military were draftees and enlistees. Relatively few from the Reserves or the NG, compared to the present day.

    Now, with so much of our military being NG and Reserves, it's a harder hit to be extended than in the past. It may reduce the overall cost to have our military in this format, but there are other problems besides money...

    'Rat
     
  7. numediaman macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2004
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    Chicago (by way of SF)
    #7
    I would agree, 'Rat. Though in WWII, so many men in uniform, they used to rotate troops very frequently. Nonetheless, the problem here may be worse than I thought when I wrote that post.

    Did you read the Hersh story I posted from the New Yorker? The story strongly implies that the treatment of the prisoners was not a random act of violence. If true, some heads will roll over this (other than the six GIs so far identified.) In fact, if true, this would truly be a war crime -- not simply an example of GIs run amok.
     
  8. Desertrat macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2003
    Location:
    Terlingua, Texas
    #8
    What with moderating over at thehighroad.org and trying to be reasonably useful to my wife's business, I don't always follow up on links. :)

    Somewhere I ran across a reference to some Germans caught in the same sort of Bad Stuff.

    As far as "war crimes", the argument will probably be about whether the U.S. idiots should be let out of Leavenworth long enough for any other legal actions...

    'Rat
     
  9. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

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    Palookaville
    #9
    For this to be a truly "random" act, the photos of the events would have to be equally random. Based on my understanding of probabilities, this has to come under the heading of "not bloody likely." I certainly hope it's not so, but I'd guess that these photos of US troops smiling for the camera while they're committing unspeakable acts against Iraqi prisoners is evidence of a wider problem. After all, people don't often do terrible things unless these acts are encouraged by their peers and, in the military at least, condoned by their commanders.

    All of which leads me to wonder whether the US troops in Iraq aren't being encouraged to think just a little bit more of themselves as conquerers than as liberators.
     
  10. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2004
    #10
    COnsidering what I've seen of the military training that went on/goes on at VMI I'm not the least bit surprised. What comes around goes around...
     
  11. IJ Reilly macrumors P6

    IJ Reilly

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2002
    Location:
    Palookaville
    #11
    Worst fears realized...
    http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/iraq/la-fg-abuse2may02,1,2927600.story
     

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