mouchoir: Gun Stuff

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Desertrat, Jul 2, 2004.

  1. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #1
    "Seriously, I don't trust you with arms, and i've never met you. Why should I trust you with a deadly weapon?"

    Why not? Why should I trust you with that deadlier weapon, the automobile? More people in the US die from involvements with automobiles that with guns.

    "Would you feel less safe if nobody was allowed to keep a gun?"

    No. People of bad intentions can always find or manufacture a weapon, up to and including firearms. There is no physical way to avoid this.

    "The ease in which a US citizen can obtain a gun, the destruction of purchase background check files and the fact the government isn't allowed to keep a database of gun owners is outrageous. (well, on that last point, maybe that isn't so bad if you're planning a revolution)."

    No, it's not outrageous. You are welcome to your opinion, as I am to mine. The Constitutional intent has nothing to do with revolution; the enumerated right has to do with protection against the misuse and abuse of power by the State. And if anybody wants to argue that point, first go read the Preamble to our Bill of Rights, which gives the reason for its existence. The Bill of Rights conveys nothing. It enumerates some--but not all--human rights. This package of 10 cannot be separated, and the reason for it is "...to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its (the State's) powers...

    "Why do you need a gun?"

    Why do you need a Rolls Royce or Ferrari? A house with one bedroom per offspring, or more than one bathroom? People have things they want, whether or not there is any perceived need.

    And, it's a bit hard to hunt deer or elk in open country without one.

    "Why would an 'innocent' person need an automatic rifle?"

    Some people have found it to be entertaining to turn money into noise. There are approximately 200,000 fully automatic weapons in the U.S. which are owned by private citizens. The only two known criminal misuses were by police, using "official" machine guns (One was a wife-kill). So, who cares about machine guns? If something is not a problem, why give a rat's patoot one way or the other?

    "Why is there so many gun related crimes in the US?"

    We have too many evil people. However, with some 40% of all U.S. households having one or more firearms, and only some 15,000 firearms-related homicides per year (about 25% of all homicdes) it's not that big a deal.

    The gun-tragedy of the U.S. lies in our way of dealing with illegal drugs, and the sub-culture of the black ghettos. These drug-related murders raise the homicide rate from around 5 per 100,000 to 22 per 100,000. Were it not for that, we'd be right in with western Europe. The majority of all blacks, of course, are not in this sub-culture arena; some 2/3 are in the economic middle-class.

    Remember that to buy a firearm in most of the U.S., one must have FBI approval, certifying that one has no prior criminal record. I, for my handgun carry license, not only need the FBI certification, I must be approved by my local "boss" cop. My photo and fingerprints are on file. I have proven my competency in shooting. I have been tested as to knowing the law. I have had training in peaceful conflict resolution. I note that few in our Congress can make that claim. :D

    Interestingly, at the time I read your post in that political thread, the six of us here at my house included a deputy sheriff and his probation-officer wife; three people with handgun carry licenses, my wife who's never harmed anybody with any of her firearms, and probably a total amount of firearms exceeding 30,000 pounds in value.

    Regards,

    'Rat
     
  2. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #2
    personal question: for me it is absolutly beyond me why someone want to own a gun...
    so what was your personal reason to be a gun owner ? (my guess: hunting ?)

    i have no problem with hunters etc. they exist here too ;) (and not very few)... but who is hunting with a pistol ?


    as for the gettho thing...you really should experience what the people here already consider a "gettho".... (i have to admit that i use the word 'gettho' sometimes too when those huge blocks of flats are mentioned..but i try my best not to use it anymore)
     
  3. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #3
  4. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #4
    <offtopic>
    hm i think a gun thread is refreshing compared to that endless threads about themes like "war on terror","Showdown in Iraq" (as CNN called it), "flipflopper" vs. "cowboy","Election" ...
    so many threads are evolving into "us vs. them" threads over the time...
    </offtopic>

    for not being completly offtopic:
    i just got reminded of my time when i was in conscription service: when our battalion was on border patrol duty (2 months), we were pretty scared about some guy (a fanatic) going berserk/some screwing up all the time/or some other guys killing themselves (every year there are about 10-20 suicides in the troops who are on border patrol) so we had to take 'pre-cautions' when they got sent out in the field the seargents removed the 'firing pin' (sp?) from those dangered with telling them.. and as soon as they came back to the camp they put the firing pin back into the rifle..without those guys even noticing it... quite amusing to know that some guys out there were sitting around together and both had disfunctional rifles.. :rolleyes: (actually the sound of the front grip of the austrian rifle sliding into vertically position with a loud "clack" is enough for arresting illegal imigrants .. in the last 2 years there was no incident where a soldier had to put a cartridge into the chamber... most illegal immigrants where from afgahnistan,iraq,chechenia at that time)
     
  5. Desertrat thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #6
    "Messing" with guns goes way back in my family. My uncle was an armorer for the National Guard when he was still in high school, back in the 1920s. All my foreebears did some amount of hunting, going back several generations.

    My mother, a PhD in Psychology, gave me my first Daisy Red Ryder BB gun when I was seven years old. I began plinking with a .22 about that same time, with my grandfather's .22 rifle. My uncle gave me my first centerfire rifle when I was sixteen; an old Enfield Model 1917 .30-'06. He started me in loading my own ammunition, mostly in order that I load ammo for him as well. (Child labor? :D)

    For background, my family has been an unending mix of agricultural/rural folks with college educations since several generations ago. My umpteenth grandfather Witherspoon was president of what became Princeton University, back about the time he signed the Declaration of Independence. We're not in any way a bunch of knuckle-dragging, non-thinking Neanderthals.

    'Rat
     
  6. Desertrat thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #7
    Hunting with a pistol: I have an old Colt "Woodsman" .22 semi-auto pistol which belonged to my grandmother. My father's comment was that she killed many squirrels for the kitchen with that pistol.

    While I have never hunted deer with a pistol, I have killed several within a range of fifteen to twenty-five yards. I'm a reasonably good stalking hunter. I easily could have used a pistol instead of a rifle. Within a short time for aiming, hitting a soda-can sized target out to 50 yards is not particularly difficult.

    It's a shame that a high percentage of all police don't do as much practice/training as do many "just folks". As it is, more non-combatant people are killed during a self-defense shooting by the police than by a homeowner. (Last datum was 30 for police and 3 by homeowner.)

    If there is really a problem among honest people in the U.S. with respect to firearms, it lies in the attitude of, "I own it, therefore I'm an expert." This applies to cars and motorboats as well. However, accidental deaths involving firearms of all types is around 1,000 per year for all age groups (For children 14 and under, about 100 to 120.)

    'Rat
     
  7. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #8
    well for my familiy it is a complete mix: there is absolutly no clear rural or urban influence but when i look untill my earliest known ancestor ( ~1530 completly with documents) i think it's pretty sure that there were a few hunters in my familiy ;) and even after 470 years most of the familiy is living in my hometown... within a few kilometers... on my father side i'm coming from southern germany (there is even a coat of arms but we haven't any documents...you know his familiy is spread across half central europe...)
    untill my father in nearly every generation there where at least 1-3 men serving in the army/french foreign legion/fighting for independence (against napolean forces..other were teachers/architects with a degree others were simple workers or farmers..others went to america because they were hoping for a better life there
     
  8. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #9

    The last religion thread got locked! :eek:
     
  9. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

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    #10
    Hmmm... no argueing is going on yet... I don't trust what's going on here. ;)


    I'm an Army Brat and have grown up around firearms my whole life. Target shooting (and to a lesser extent hunting) has been a recreational activity for my whole family (both nuclear and extended). My parents (and nearly all of my extended family) are from Texas so when I was a kid we'd drive down to TX, from Indiana, and spend two weeks or so there on vacation. And we'd always make a trip down to Canyon w/some cousins, aunts and uncles, and tear up cans, bottles, playing cards, and any other make-shift targers we could get our hands on.
    Those days are long gone though, and people have slowly scattered to different states. These days whenever I'm in Phoenix visiting my brother we hit up a very nice, local outdoor range there for some shotgun action (skeet, trap, & sporting clays). These days I don't get to shoot nearly as much as I want to mostly because of time & money (range fees).


    Lethal
     
  10. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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  11. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

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    #12
    Man, you must be quite the mess at meal time. ;)


    Lethal
     
  12. Desertrat thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #13
    :) Neserk, I've never thought it important that somebody have an epiphany and suddenly turn around and go to liking guns, but it always bothers me that anybody has some amount of fear of an inanimate object. My view is that if one is afraid of snakes, learn more about them. Same for guns. Go to a gun store and have somebody show the basics; feel and fondle, etc. After all, it's only the misuse that poses any danger.

    Some of it, to me, is a part of parental duty. One of the scariest times one can have at a range or at a deer camp is a 24-year-old with his first rifle and no background in gun safety or knowledge, because his parents were against having guns in the home. "As much responsibility toward another person as a neurosurgeon, with none of the education and training."

    I have right at a half-century as an adult in the "world of guns". The great majority of folks I've known exhibit a high level of personal responsibilty, and an above-the-usual amount of courtesy and politeness. In many years of having a trade table at gunshows, I never got a hot check. I make no claim as to any perfect people, but I have more innate trust of gun-folks than of others.

    Harking to the comment about trust in the opening post, how does one have trust of a person who abdicates the responsibility for the safety of himself and of his family to some outsider of unknown competency?

    :), 'Rat
     
  13. Chip NoVaMac macrumors G3

    Chip NoVaMac

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    #14
    Gun ownership in the US is a thorny issue.

    Our Bill of Rights allows for gun ownership. Some feel that that means for no restrictions. There are those of us that feel that gun ownership was meant for a "militia" or in present day terms our National Guard.

    Back during the Cold War days, the fear of a hostile takeover of the US led the hearts of many. It was felt that registering a a weapon was an invite to prevent "patriots" from protecting the homeland. Now that the Cold War is over, they now have to find a new fear to lay on the people. One familiar refrain that I hear from NRA members today, is for protection of their family from the criminals. I do not have a gun or a rifle, and for the most part I feel safe. And if I truly did not feel safe there are less violent ways of protecting ones self.

    I have no problem with gun ownership for a hunter. Or a sport shooter. Reasonable restrictions should be placed on ownership IMO in order to protect the community as a whole. If a registered gun is stolen, there must be a way of tracking it. A thornier issue is how many weapons is too much, and what weapons have a place in civilian hands.

    Recently a Bull Run Middle School student (near where I live) brought three weapons into school. His intention was a Columbine like attack by most reports. A search of his parents home came up with 20 more weapons. That is 23 weapons in one household. I am assuming that all were capable of being fired. I for the life of me can not see a reason for that many weapons.

    We need tougher laws IMO in the US. As an example the parents of the child above should be charged as if they had committed the actual crime. For it would appear that weapon safety was not practiced. IMO having gun/weapon owners doing major time for not securing their weapons would make sure that more practice gun safety.

    My Dad was a law enforcement officer. So I was brought up with a gun in the house. But I was also brought up with respect of that gun. And I was also brought up that Heaven would not help me if I ever touched that gun. It is funny in thinking about it now. My Dad having 20+ years as an officer, never joined the NRA. He never owned his own gun/weapon. In fact the bullets for his weapon were kept in a separate lock-box. And when he retired, he never held another gun/weapon.
     
  14. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #15

    LOL... you know it ;)
     
  15. Neserk macrumors 6502a

    Neserk

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    #16
    I'll think about it... What you say makes tons of sense but i have problems bringing myself to even look at them let alone touch one or fire one :eek:

    Maybe... later...
     
  16. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

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    #19
    I've never felt that the National Guard was a mordern day version of the militia the Founding Fathers spoke of because the NG is still a tool of the State. I can't expect the NG to protect me and my rights if the NG are the ones attempting to take them away by order of the State.

    It's obviously a personal thing but I put keeping a firearm up there with having a fire extingisher<sp?>, smoke detectors, and emergency supplies of food and water. All things I hope I never need but if I do at least I have them.

    Assumptions can be dangerous things. ;) I know many gun collectors that have many, many more firearms than that and most of them, practically speaking, cannot be fired (unless you are able make the correct ammunition yourself or are lucky enough to find live rounds at gun shows or what not). And if you are even a just a hobbie shooter it's not hard, IMO, to buy that many fire arms over the course of many years.

    The shooters at Columbine broke something like 19 laws before even stepping foot into that high school. Would more laws have stopped them? The vast majority of guns used in crimes are not aquired legally so tossing more laws onto the books wouldn't help much, if at all, IMO.

    What we need is education and a focusing of our efforts and resources to finding out why people are commiting these crimes instead of focusing on what tools they. Focusing on the "gun" part of "gun violence" is addressing the symptom not the cause. I also think the law you suggested opens a very slipperly slope. What if your kid gets drunk, hops in the family car and kills someone. Should you be charged w/the crimes your child commited? What if the guns were locked up but the child managed to get them anyway? If it is a case of gross negligence that led to the situation that is a different story though.

    If properly used the kids that shot up Columbine HS could have done significantly more death and destruction w/the dozens of pipe and propane bombs they had (most of which were either not used or malfuctioned). But I don't see people asking for stricter laws regarding propane. In the end though, does it really matter how they did what they did? Isn't finding out why they did it more important?

    Roger that. Gun safety was paramount in our house growing up and the last thing any of us kids wanted to do was cross the 6'-2" 200lb Lt. Colonel w/the Ranger tab on his shoulder that was our father.


    Lethal
     
  17. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

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    #20

    You guys should combine the two. You hit the golf ball and your dad trys to shoot it. :D


    Lethal
     
  18. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #21
    you know a bottle of sarin/soman/tabun is inanimate too..and believe me... one drop alone is enough to scare the sh.. out of me... ;) (especially after i saw what one drop does to a mouse if she gets the trop on the end of her tail...on video of course)

    the more i learned about guns (during my service) the more i got scared ... especially when i see how _many_ guys can't handle a gun even after 3 months of intensive daily training... sure there are a lot of people who can handle a gun responsible..but there are a lot of people who _can't_... there are even people who can't handle a glock 17 (which is far from being difficult)

    edit:the problem with the us gun laws is not the laws itself...IMHO it is the 'failing' enforcement of those laws
     
  19. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

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    #22
    I understand what you are getting at probably as well as you understand the severe shorting comings of your example. ;)


    Lethal
     
  20. Chip NoVaMac macrumors G3

    Chip NoVaMac

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    #23
    I never said that gun deaths are epidemic among youth. But with proper training and care they can be greatly reduced.

    I was not asked about how I feel about holding the parents responsible for their children's deaths in other ways either. In the case of drowning and fires, if the parents are responsible, they should be so charged and serve the maximum time.

    And you bring up another topic when you bring up children dying in automobile accidents. I feel that a parent that is caught speeding, DUI/DWI, reckless driving, and the such should be charged with child endangerment. If it results in the child's death they should face maximum punishment.

    Children are our most precious resource. As such we need to send the message that as a parent you have a responsibility to make sure that child is out of harms way.

    Now what I find funny is that when Ford Pinto's were exploding into flames everyone was up in arms. Same way when the Ford Explorers were rolling over. Lets make them safe was the cry. But when it comes to guns lets bring up the low numbers here.

    Notice what I was aiming at is that if we can not control the guns, we can at least control those that own them to be responsible and think twice about their choices.
     
  21. Chip NoVaMac macrumors G3

    Chip NoVaMac

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    #24
    :)

    I respect where you are coming from. And hope you understand where I am coming from when I say this, you sound like a pamphlet for the NRA. That is not a personal attack against you.

    Let's say that we agree to disagree. :)
     
  22. LethalWolfe macrumors G3

    LethalWolfe

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    #25

    We'll I has half way thru a response to your previous post when I saw this one so in an effort to save 3 or 4 pages of banter I agree w/the agreement to disagree. :)

    Although I do take offense to the NRA pamphlet comment ( I understand that none was intended though). I'm not a member of the NRA nor do I want to be. While I am a strong believer in gun ownership (obviously), and I do like the gun safety/education programs the NRA has but I don't like the hard-line stance that the NRA typically takes. I am a firm believer in compromise and the NRA, to me, seems too uncompromising. But maybe I'm just another victim of the liberal media. :eek: :D :p


    Lethal
     

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