Moving to NH for freedom

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by DadaOrwell, Feb 22, 2004.

  1. DadaOrwell macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2004
    #1
    I hope I may be forgiven for kinda goin' from zero to ninety in 8 seconds with my first post here, but...

    I'd like to get your take on the Free State Project. That's the group trying to recruit 20,000 liberty-oriented activists from around the country. Their 5,500 members have pledged to move to New Hampshire and reinforce the increasingly bold freedom movement there. 250 of them are already in-state, but the real hell raising is coming from the legislature and the governor as they harden their stands against the IRS and FDA.

    This is not for everyone, but NH is starting to look pretty good compared to most of this socialist-infested nation.

    Here is a Free State Project flyer:

    ---

    WANT FREEDOM? COME TO NEW HAMPSHIRE!

    If you think you live in a free country, move along. We're not the droids you're looking for.

    But if you glow with fury every April 15, if you think sales tax is slavery, if your response to the Gun Grabbers is "take my bullets first," read on...

    If you think drug use and sexual behavior among consenting adults are none of the Nanny State's business, if you'd agree that seat belt laws are for sheeple and smoking ordinances are for serfs...

    You are one of us. And you deserve to live in a freer place.

    New Hampshire is such a place; many consider it the freest state left in the world. And it's starting to get freer. Join us there and become the last, best hope for Liberty in Your Lifetime.

    www.FreeStateProject.org
     
  2. DavisBAnimal macrumors member

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    Jul 17, 2002
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    #2
    I think these guys are just a little confused by our state moto - they would have been better off going to Wyoming.

    New Hampshire is not looking forward to the immigration and I fear for those making the move that they will be met with anger, frustration, and hatred. Liberals and conservatives alike here are not happy about the movement, but there's not much they can do to stop it.

    We may be "Live Free or Die", we may not have a helmet law, and there may be no sales or income tax, but these guys are going to need to be prepared for astronomical property taxes, as well as a still unresolved school funding issue that will likely lead to sales or income taxes down the road...these guys may be finding themselves just as "enslaved" here as any other state.

    Davis
     
  3. Awimoway macrumors 65816

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    #3
    I wish libertarians would all move to a foreign country. We could give them the Marshall Islands. :D
     
  4. 3rdpath macrumors 68000

    3rdpath

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  5. DadaOrwell thread starter macrumors newbie

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    Feb 22, 2004
    #5
    Davis wrote:

    << I think these guys are just a little confused by our state moto - they would have been better off going to Wyoming. >>

    Hi Davis...

    Well I wish this movement weren't necessary; I wish we had freedom all over the U.S. And yes I will always feel a little awkward about moving to another state and influencing "their" politics. I hope we are perceived as reinforcements rather than invaders and that someday I earn the label "New Hampshirite."

    The main reason WY lost the vote is because Free Staters felt a degree of deference to current residents of the candidate states. NH showed much more friendliness to the idea than WY, and when Governor Benson joined the movement as a "Friend of the FSP," that swayed a lot of votes your way. We still feel that same deference. No state is making such great blows for freedom as NH and they're doing it without much help from the FSP, which is chartered exclusively for recruiting.

    If freedom isn't possible in NH I don't think it's possible anywhere in my lifetime.

    BTW one thing I love about NH is that even folks there like you who are critical of us are still freedom oriented. Hell I don't care if you hate my guts...if you agree that we are all enslaved I'll never be able to hate you back.
     
  6. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #6
    I dont blame these people at all, our freedoms have been taken away with a million laws and a million reasons to come at us for tax purposes. Our country was founded on this main philosophy of freedom but has been taken away by our own Govt. If it wasnt so darn cold up there i would move. Some people would like to live without constant govt intrusion and taxation in everything they do. 1 example 100 billion dollars in Iraq and counting.
    Good luck Libertarians.
     
  7. DavisBAnimal macrumors member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2002
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    #7
    My only concern is that a mass migration like the one that's going to happen will cause a lot of animosity towards the FSP, as often happens during mass immigration movements anywhere at anytime.

    I wish you all the luck and hope you find what you're looking for. New Hampshire's a great state all around, and I'm sure you will be happy within these communities.

    Davis
     
  8. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    Terlingua, Texas
    #8
    Davis, I'd bet that the rate of inflow will be less than that of the minimum-wage immigrants now coming into your cities. And, these people will be self-sustaining as to income; acculturated, and "just like us" except for their voting patterns...

    Other than the usual artificial media excitement they'll probably not really be noticed, except for possible changes in the laws over a lengthy period.

    :), 'Rat
     
  9. DavisBAnimal macrumors member

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    Location:
    New Hampshire
    #9
    Well that's just the thing - the media circus has already begun, and the movement has been covered extensively over here, at times being labeled an "invasion". That's what has me worried, cause when the first Free Stater shows up I'm afraid it won't be "welcome to the neighborhood" but more "oh, the Johnsons are one of THOSE people". The "minimum-wage immigrants" coming into our "cities" (this is New Hampshire, though, keep in mind, and our biggest city has a total population of 100,000 people) aren't getting that sort of media attention, and therefore don't get any flack - and that's a good thing, I welcome them, too, and hope they can find something more than minimum wage and have a nice life here.

    Now I am not a libertarian, but I respect their position and I respect their right to move here and fully understand their intentions. I'm not mad, I'm interested in seeing what happens in the future. But I'm a totally hip, happening, open minded guy! What about everyone else here? I know some people already feel threatened.

    Eh. but they'll get over it.

    Davis
     
  10. DadaOrwell thread starter macrumors newbie

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    Feb 22, 2004
    #10
    Davis wrote:

    <<That's what has me worried, cause when the first Free Stater shows up I'm afraid it won't be "welcome to the neighborhood" but more "oh, the Johnsons are one of THOSE people">>

    I understand there are officially about 260 Free Staters in NH already. My understanding is about a third of those are early movers from out of state. The ones I've heard from are thrilled with the place and don't seem to feel any need to lay low or anything. I'm sure they could always keep their reason for moving quiet if they needed to, but it just doesn't seem to be a problem.

    The first mover I know of was a model named Jackie Casey who moved within a week of the vote...."with her two cats and two pistols and a plan to start 9 businesses because 8 out of 10 fail." - LOL
     
  11. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #11
    As long as the folks who move there have some similarity to the attitudes of Claire Wolfe, it can't be all bad. She's a hoot. And from what I've seen, most Libertarians aren't generally activists on any sort of daily basis, which makes them easy to get along with.

    I guess what's amusing to me about this deal is that some thirty years back, I tried to persuade some dozen folks I knew to move to a really neat small town in the Davis Mountains of west Texas. We could have "infiltrated" the local establishment, over time, and grown into being part of the local power structure. They thought it would be a neat thing, but just not for them. Well, okay. Trouble is, for the last twenty years they've all been griping about the hassles and hazards of still living in Austin...

    :), 'Rat
     
  12. DadaOrwell thread starter macrumors newbie

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    Feb 22, 2004
    #12
    <<As long as the folks who move there have some similarity to the attitudes of Claire Wolfe, it can't be all bad. She's a hoot.>>

    Yep she is....her bunch is doing a lot to help with that case where the Free Stater from NH got arrested for driving thru Ohio with a sidearm.
     
  13. DadaOrwell thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #13
    Republican Liberty Caucus just voted to endorse this bunch.
     
  14. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #14
    I pretty much agree with this.

    If you want Big Brother, we've got the Patriot Act, the Total Information Awareness project and other spooky stuff going on. And these guys are worried about taxes??
     
  15. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #15
    I'm sure one will be along shortly to point out that no taxes= no money for gov't, no $ for gov't= no funding for Patriot Act.

    It makes perfect sense in a perfect world.
     
  16. miloblithe macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

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    #16
    I find the slavery/serf language more than a little annoying. Are you really comparing laws to fine people for not wearing seatbelts to slavery or serfdom? It makes your argument sound silly. It's the equivalent of Communist rags calling the U.S. a totalitarian expoliter of the workers. It's fun to say, but that's about all.

    I also think that "freedom" is so overused that it is almost an empty word. To misuse a quotation, "Don't forget. There are two kinds of freedom: freedom from and freedom to."

    I find libertarianism really disheartening. In some respects, I think it's an essential voice. There must be lines that the government cannot cross into our personal space. Some things are the domain of the individual or the domain of civil society. But libertarianism, to me, smacks of callous indifference to society: my own rights above anything else. What about the common good? We all have to make sacrifices for others.
     
  17. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #17
    i'd like to say that i appreciate the fact that someone chose to put the word 'Dada' in their name
     
  18. poopyhead macrumors 6502a

    poopyhead

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    #18
    Libertarians aren't against rendering aid to their fellow man nor are they against helping out the greater community
    they are against government coercion and control used to effect these aims
    this is a subtle but very important distinction
     
  19. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #19
    I agree. And I ask myself who these libertarians are? I suspect they are largely white and relatively prosperous. I can't imagine many less fortunate people being attracted....
     
  20. amnesiac1984 macrumors 6502a

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    #20
    WHat scares me most about this idea I think is the Gun freedom thing. Okay we argue all day and night about whether guns should be legal but my poin there is that basically it seems most of the free state project are gun owners. I'm all for freedom, but I don't know if I would really feel free knowing that EVERYONE is going around with a sidearm.
     
  21. DadaOrwell thread starter macrumors newbie

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    #21
    Yes!

    BTW serfs historically paid a smaller percentage of their "earnings" to their masters than we do.

    Americans dish out around 30-60% of thier income on average in total taxation. Even the Roman dictators only asked for 1-4% and the British Stamp Tax that triggered the Revolutionary War was only 3%

    But I'm not trying to change any minds here. I'm saying if you agree with me rather than the Dictacrats and Control Freaks...there is a place for you, and that place is New Hampshire.

    If on the other hand you don't like what I'm saying, no sweat. You've got 49 slave states to pick from.
     
  22. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #22
    Fundamentalist, self-centred escapism, if you ask me. Who's a slave? It's in your mind.
     
  23. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #23
    While I'd be the first to agree that the system we live under is not perfect, I think you need a little perspective on things...the concept of liberty, again implies a sense of responsibility and intelligence, although those things aren't explicitly required...to DadaOrwell and the like, you must remember that the system you find so oppressive managed to shepard you into the person you are today...you are most likely well-educated, healthy, generally free from harassment and fear of bodily or mental injury...to name a few. It is easy to pick on a system for its inadequacies, but the multitude of benefits are often ignored as they are ubiquitous...also, it should be noted that our current system was designed by an aggregate of individual opinion for the common good, but as any human endeavor, it is flawed...it is naive to think a Libertarian state would be immune from such flaws, and it would have none of the protections our system has to protect its' members...plus the fact that w/o the forcible contribution to the community as a whole (via taxes) the conditions with which to begin a Libertarian State would not exist, as security and infrastructure concerns must be taken care of as a fuctioning minimum society requirement...as people have said, I do not trust the whims of the individual to take care of these requirements...in fact, the irony of the "Serf" comment is that since by some measure some are always more powerful than the rest, a Libertarian society could easily approach something akin to Feudalism...I mean no disrespect to DadaOrwell, or any other Libertarians, and I agree w/ them on isolated issues, but overall, it seems naive...sorry for the rant..
     
  24. Desertrat macrumors newbie

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    #24
    blackfox, libertarianism doesn't seem like a bad thing for an ideal world. Trouble is, it absolutely demands far more personal responsibility than most folks are willing to take. It thus could not work at a national level; it's dubious at the state level.

    My own opinion is that now that so many people have come to take all manner of tax-paid benefits for granted and want more, the State has become Big Nanny, acting in loco parentis even to those who are competent--whether or not they so wish. Libertarianism has become rather a revolt of some of the more competent...

    :), 'Rat
     
  25. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #25
    Sounds like you could swap 'more competent' for 'conservative elites' pretty easily...

    And the parallels to communism are very strong. Libertarianism will never work for the same reasons.
     

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