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Discussion in 'Mac Programming' started by rpp3po, Oct 25, 2007.
I totally agree with this guy:
It's been speculation and fact for a while now, and nothing particularly new (albeit somewhat infuriating).
I'm sure everyone saw this coming if they read about Gosling giving up his mac for Solaris. Damn.
Why should Apple expend significant resources to port over a third (in addition to Carbon and Cocoa) application framework when the market for such is so small even compared to Carbon?
Based on the new Ruby/Python/Scripting bridge support, I think Apple is smartly focusing on where the action is *now*, not on a third-party app framework that is so clunky and has massive overhead.
Even Adobe made its Aperture competitor using a scripting language for the UI (Lua or whatever it was called).
I think it would not be mistaken to say Apple's put more work into Java 5 on Leopard than they have into Carbon for Leopard. The market is NOT small at all. Apple just seems to have some twisted reason for doing what they are that makes absolutely no sense (to me). Not even your (IMO) absurd reasoning that Apple should be focusing more in Ruby/Python/...
I think you have said enough to disqualify yourself. Java revenue in the corporate SOA space alone surpasses Carbon multiple times. The corporate world doesn't jump onto every bandwagon, there have been to many. Tell me one Fortune 500 which uses Ruby or Python for central, mission critical services. There are 1000's on the Java side. It is rock solid, provides excellent scaling capabilities, easy and excellent threading support (ever used ThreadPoolExecutor?), high performance, asynchronous I/O, and important enteprise capabilities built in. Try to accomplish what Java Enterprise beans do for you with a few lines of code coordinating a distributed transaction from Tokio, Singapur and Rome with Ruby or Python. Easy for quick stuff, which surely has many important uses. But for anything bigger, toys....
Even though I'm not a Java developer myself, I think it's a shame Leopard didn't ship with Java 6. Java is still a very important platform despite the inroads made by other solutions.
I think that was a pretty bold thing for Gosling to say/do, but whatever... There have been rumors about Java 6 being released for Leopard soon, and I'd rather wait and see what happens with that first before giving up on Java on the Mac. If they don't manage to get 6 out with Leopard, well that will make me sad...
Thousands of Fortune 500 companies?
Name one that uses Java on the Mac to implement central, mission critical services.
Hell, I'd be surprised if any of them that are committed to using Java have rolled Java 6 into production yet, given SOX.
I think it is ridiculous, too. Apple is almost a year behind Windows and Linux.
As a couple people have commented :
"At a WWDC, Jobs said "We will make the best platform for Java Developers!""
And "The big thing Apple have failed to notice is how many CS courses use Java as their main teaching language.
No up-to-date Java on Macs => fewer purchases of Macs by CS departments
Fewer Macs in CS departments => less software written for Macs"
I hope that Apple will soon release both Java 6 and full zfs support.
This is very true. When i took my first programming class it was a java class. The thing was they were using java 5 for all the hw assignment. Needless to say, at the time OS X did not come standard with java 5. Being a CSE student i did not have a problem finding java 5 preview to install on the mac, but it was discouraging to say least when i had to search and install "extra" stuff to stay up-to-date with the windows side.
It would be nice to see apple keep up to date with java more and bring back the bridge to cocoa as i think java is quite a nice programming language. But i am kinda bias as it is really the only "real" language I have used for my programming classes.
Java is definitely a beneficial language. Being able to port it to any OS, use it in web browsers with little to no tweaking is huge. I'm surprised Apple hasn't included 6 in Leopard. They also may be waiting for version 6 to become more of standard and taking their time implementing it correctly on Leopard. Making sure it works more seamlessly when porting from different OSs.
I can't be the only person who remembers the version timeline. Java 6 officially has been out, excluding previews and betas, since December of last year. If we include the whole process, it started back in February 2006 (see jsr 270). That link also shows final release as December 11, 2006. It's been over 10 months, and it's not like the final version was a complete surprise to anyone.
At the rate Apple seems to love going at, I'm sure Java 7 will be floating around in beta form by the time we get 6.
That is one HELL of a delay. Meanwhile, Apple's just been adding stuff to Java 5. That's pretty freaking pathetic for a company that seems so dedicated..on the outside...to Java devs..or at least they like proclaiming things without following up on them. Meanwhile they're sucking up to all the Rails people who are so hyped over the fact that Rails/Mongrel/Capistrano are built into Leopard.
It's not just schools with Java classes, which I'd fall under, which I'd love to have the latest version of if we're going to be talking about new language features (yeah, imagine my embarrassment when Apple pulled this same **** with 5). People aren't going to be jumping to use newer versions of Java, but as the windows/linux versions progress and those users update and your average Mac user is stuck with whatever comes with the computer (read: something old), I wouldn't be TOO shocked to see frustrated developers. I mean, there's already plenty right now. More to come. Yay.
There have been several hints that Java is of decreasing importance with Apple. The long delay in updating the developer preview of SE 6, even before Leopard (which is now no longer linked from the downloads page). The discontinuation of development on the Java-Cocoa bridge. Steve's comments when discussing Java on iPhone. ("Javas not worth building in. Nobody uses Java anymore. Its this big heavyweight ball and chain.")
Java desktop apps suck. The sooner they die the better.
(However, server-side Java is a different story. Were you lamenting the lack of SE 6 on Leopard Server you might have a point. But then again, I know of no one who uses server-side Java on Mac. My organisation certainly doesn't: it's all Linux and Solaris.)
That's outdated, as many myths about Java. Check http://azureus.sf.net. That's THE bittorrent client. It has got an excellent UI and performance is more than acceptable, even on a 1.33 Ghz G4 and Java 5. Java 6 Swing performance has improved even more. Java 6 Look & Feels are also great.
That UI is 99% custom. It doesn't look like a Mac application at all. Anyone can make a UI like that. It looks just like a web page.
Typical Java apps do suck because almost all cross-platform UI applications use the least common denominator between operating systems. Another reason why REALbasic apps suck
Actually suck or just not quite as nice looking as a Cocoa or Windows app?
Eclipse and NetBeans are both desktop Java apps and both are a country mile ahead of anything 'native' for performing the same task; Xcode is very pretty but, frankly, sucks in comparison.
And while I am on the topic, I often hear that a certain app has crashed 'because it's Java and rubbish'. All applications crash at some point, but I don't blame Cocoa or Carbon everytime a native app crashes (and yes, I have Java apps open all day on OS X and Windows and I don't think any of them suck, they are simply the best tools for getting what I need done).
Oh, and yes, no Java 6 - that does suck.
Well I'm picky. If an app has an ugly UI, in my opinion it sucks. Consistent UI is what sets the Mac apart from any other OS.
Don't make me pull out the car analogy
Consistent UI across platforms is what sets Java apart.
There are also excellent UI's written in Java, and crap written in Cocoa. What's the point?
My point is Java UI apps on the Mac generally break the consistency that Cocoa and Carbon usually retain. Yes you can write ugly apps in Cocoa, but it's harder because Interface Builder gives you guides as to where every control should be placed.
Of course you can make a nice looking Java app for the Mac. But will that app look equally nice on Windows or Linux? Probably not because the standard UI layout is different for each OS.
Anyways, this is way off topic.
At least you guys have a version of Java running on Leopard. It's way better than M$ screwing .NET developers by not including the framework on XP.
That wasn't really meant to be a dig at all - I know what you mean. I tried with Xcode, I really did, and I wanted Apple to do it well, but at the end of the day, other tools are better. I am a bit defensive over Java, as it is one of the few tools that let me do cross DB work on a Mac. IMHO, some of the software is little short of superb and I also had similar, sceptical preconceptions about Java. I am happy to have been proved wrong.
Staying on topic, if Apple do let Java slip, then .NET tools, especially C#3 which has some very really cool features, especially LINQ and lamba expressions, something I miss, make a very attractive alternative for the future as it covers all the other bases too. I might not be mainstream for Apple's consumer centric focus, but that doesn't mean I am happy to be treated like a second class citizen.
SJ has repeatedly stressed the importance of Java but is failing to deliver (for whatever, no doubt reasonable, cause), this latest example highlighting it. As and when Java 6 comes out, minimum specs become 10.5.1 or higher, not just Leopard, which also adds an unecessary layer of complication.
there is a great solution to make the UI look just like any other mac app and that's swt, looks better than swing on any platform and is cross-platform consistent too, can't beat it.
Ontopic now: I'm disgusted about how apple handles developers, my eclipse is crashing on leopard, I don't hava java 6, I don't have any word if there ever will be one, ...
I posted on the thread on apple's own discussion board, the frecking thread got deleted!!!
Not to mention other leopard problems like isight being completely disabled when trying to take pictures for a new user account using the preference screen.
The minimizing being very laggy on the latest mbp with 8600gtm ...
It's sick, did I pay 2500 for this?
I'm grabbing a wndows box off the shelve tomorrow to have a non-crashing eclipse box and hope these things get sorted out quickly!
I'm quite frustrated at this stage ... I hope they can do some damage control.
If you want to use Swing, be sure to check out Quaqua. It makes an impressive stab at getting the UI as right as possible while remaining cross platform. Changing a pluggable laf is a lot less work than rewriting a GUI.
Sorry if this has been covered before but I am pretty new to the Mac although I have been programming Java on Windows and Linux for a number of years.
Am I correct in assuming that Sun themselves don't produce a Java package for the Mac in the same way that they do for Linux and Windows? Are we completely reliant on Apple to produce the goods? If this is true them I am pretty shocked to say the least!
One of the reasons I bought a MBP recently! I can't stress enough how disappointing this news is, what happened to the beta I read about? so they just dropped Java6 all together?, real shame.
Running 6 in Parallels is not much fun Please Apple, don't forget us Java developers! Almost all the Mac owners I know (90% Java developers) are feeling very let down by the news that Java6 is missing in Leopard.
Personally I make the choice then to wait on Leopard for proper Java support. Also looking forward to full ZFS ) Apple can be applauded for that decision!!
Yes, Apple does all their own Java work, by choice. My hope is that if Apple isn't interested in keeping Java up-to-date on OSX that they turn it over to Sun/the OpenJDK people.