North Korea, Iraq, and Terrorism vs U.S.A.

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Fipher, Nov 23, 2002.

  1. macrumors newbie

    #1
    Q1:Can the U.S.A. take on all three by themselves?
    Q2:Could they do it with support, and who would the support be?
    Q3:If they were to decide to take care of one at a time in what order would the problems be solved? Who is the what poses the biggest threat to the U.S. and allies out of the 3?

    My answers:

    Q1:No

    Q2:Yes, if S. Korea, Japan, and Indonisia suported the U.S. with atleast millatary force, and China decided to stay out of it this time (because China would never join the U.S. and might defete the U.S. just as they had in th Korean War. Then meanwile for terrorism if Indonesia, all midle easter countrys, Great Britan, Grmany, and Russia all cooperated with the US and did everything they could to make looking for and taking out the Taliban and company they would be able to do it. And finally If all naboring countries of Iraq supported the U.S. by letting them make military bases on their land and if Russia Great Britan, and mabe Germany helped out with some money and/or troops the U.S. could easaly defete Iraq, if war did end up inevidable.

    Q3: I would say that terrorism i the biggest threat, especially now that Binladen IS infact alive and has made a recorded adio threat against the U.S. I beleve finding him and the rest of his pals is #1 priority, neither N. Korea or Iraq have actually threatend the U.S. 2nd place is kind of hard to determine. Both countrys have fought the U.S. in actually blood shedding battle, they both have what in my opinion are evil governments in place, but the one thing that pulls my trigger closer to North Korea is that North Korea we actually KNOW that they have nucular weapons even though they agreed not to make any. Also, their people are starving and vreezing so much that they are fleeing their own country to China to seek food and better shelter. It would be goot to finally get rid the the North Korean Comunist government and finally join N.+S. Korea as one nation under a democratic government with Soul as the capital city. That way they would more easaly solve the food and energy problems that are in effect in the North Korea right now and Soul is already the capital city of South Korea and is close to the center of the Korean ponisula so that the capital would already be in the center of the nation. And lastly, take care of Iraq. Although they are giving in to all demands for inspection for weapons of mass distruction a reseme change is neede in Iraq. Sadam may be doing a very good job as being president for the economy in Iraq seems to be doing ok, but he is much to apressive. It is aperrent to me that he has threatend his people so much that they dare not vote againsts him, and even show great love and compation towards him, for fear of "disapearing". the same goes for even running against him. Anyone notice that not a single Iraqi dared run against him in the lates election? I find it very VERY hard to beleve that not a single person in the country wanted to be president of Iraq. Why? Because it IS human nature to want MORE POWER! Anyone anywhere in the world will say the same thing. It is illogical that in such a mass of people not 1 would want to run to be alected to be president. My father is reading a book by and Iraqi who had gone to school in the US to learn about nuclear technolagy so he could help his government back in Iraq to make Nuclear power plants, but when he whent back to Iraq the government forsed him to buigin work on Nuclear weapons. In it he tells a story about a mac who through a brik at his TV because Saddam was on it. his wife told on him and the man was sentenced to death and Sadam thanked her and rewarded her. I don't know how he rewarded her or any other detail about the book because I didn't read it, my dad just tol me a little about it.

    So those are my answers to my questions, please give me your owns answers and resons to the questions so we can discuss more.
     
  2. macrumors 65816

    groovebuster

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    #2
    No comment... just the subject "North Korea, Iraq and Terrorism vs USA" is a joke. Did I miss something, or when did North Korea take action against the US by terroristic acts? Iraq is just another subject...

    And no offense, but I never saw an american fellow with so many spelling mistakes in a short text like that... Even though English is not my mother-tongue, it really "hurts" to read all that crap.

    Maybe you were drunk? Do yourself a favor then and don't write "in public". In case you are a dyslexic, I am sorry for you, but it's still not an excuse for posting so much crap about a subject like that into a public forum.

    Regards,

    groovebuster
     
  3. macrumors regular

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  4. macrumors regular

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    #4
    Evil megalomaniac despot nations suck. I don't know about you but I am freaking sick and tired of all these religious fundamentalist pinheads. Jesus H. Christ. There I said it. I could go on and on but I am cutting myself short before I rail into a diatribe and get banned from these forums. Does anyone else feel fed up with all this? It's just going to go on and on. Einstein was right, "There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the first one.".
     
  5. macrumors 65816

    groovebuster

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    #5
    Yes, they do... the problem is just, how is one defined? Are the USA less megalomaniac than countries like Iraq or North Korea? I don't think so... and that is the problem. Just different, but not better at all.

    And they are tired of the ignorant capitalistic western world pinheads who substituted religion by worshipping money and have no respect for their traditions and beliefs... Like always everything depends on the point of view.

    Who are we to call them pinheads? With our way of life very often we are 10x worse than them...

    groovebuster
     
  6. macrumors regular

    Joined:
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    #6
    I'm not saying that Americans are angels but come on, at least we have the Bill of Rights. We've come a long way, but we have a ways to go and socially we haven't measured up to the moral yardstick that we've laid out for ourselves. But I think America's strength is that we can figure it out as we go. I think the biggest problem in the future for us is the frightening corporatization of the landscape and their influence on Washington politics.
    I agree though that the majority of Americans are gluttons. That's unfortunately the price of being such a mobile society. People want their big SUV's and super-sized burgers. I own a 93 Pontiac Sunbird with over 150,000 miles on it. Planning to get a 4 cylinder Honda to be easier on the gas. I've been thinking cost-effective for a long time now. That's a mantra of mine.
     
  7. macrumors 65816

    groovebuster

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    #7
    I know you do... but it is only for citizen of the USA. "Unfortunately" 98% of the world are not. And do you really want to start a discussion about how the US treat/-ed people from other nations and countries when "national interests" were involved? Everybody who is no US citizen is a human being 2nd class. But actually I doubt that a discussion about all that makes sense...

    Like every other country you mean?

    At the moment it seems as if a lot of US fellows lose the moral yardstick out of sight. Just an impression. To be full of yourself and prejudice is way easier than asking yourself if there are things also wrong with yourself and in your own country. Since last year the US media remind me sometimes of the german propaganda during WWII. I guess I don't need to explain that any further...

    That's capitalism. The power is where the money is. That will never change. At least not as long as the classical capitalism will exist. But also that is a totally different subject.

    Sorry, I can't follow... what does that has to do with a society being mobile? :confused:

    Good for you. I think it is more a question of education than of anything else. It is a mirror of the society, how people reflect about themselves and their environment. And tell me, isn't it scary what you see? Is there any reason in particular to believe that people who treat their body and their environment like that are reasonable about treating even people in other parts of the world well?

    Just think about it...

    Regards,

    groovebuster
     
  8. macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
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    #8
    Saudi Arabia

    Maybe I am missing something, but I have a couple of questions

    Where did Asama Bin Laden aquire his fortune?
    Where were the majority of the terrorist from on 9-11?
    Who finances terrorist Palenstinian Organizations more then anyone?
    Why has that country never officially apolojized?
    Why have the Bushes had personal financial dealings with the Bin ladens for so long?
    why were his relatives given protection and safe passage home.

    Do you have to be a terrorist to get invited to Bush's ranch?

    Why wont the Saudi's let us use there bases to rid them of there enemy?
    Why did we support Saddam more in the Iraq war while at the same time supporting Iran secretly?.
    Who has used more weapons of Mass destruction then anyone on civilian populations i.e. Agent Orange, poisening entire Indian tribes, desimating the Buffalo population to starve them?
    occuppying their land and then calling it are own and breaking one treaty agreement after another. who has used nucleur weapons to kill 100 of thousands more then once?

    Who was not elected but appointed?
    : hint its not Saddam.
    Before we attack anyone , Saudi Arabia should be number one on the list.
    and I dont mean for a ranch visit.
    What gives us the right to overthrow a sovereign nation and put in our puppets simply because we think he may one day have weapons like we do, or is it simply to avenge an alleged assassination of someones dad?

    So now every kid in a class room has a right to beat the living Hel! out of any classmate that they think may one day show agression to them.
    And I guess God should have put us all in Hel! right away if he thought that any of us would ever sin.
    Lets make a new list regime change and every country that may one day do us harm. why wait? Somehow Russia and China did not make the list even though the have nukes pointed at us this very minute.
    So lets pick on the states we know we can defeat.
    Its all a Joke Iraq would not play by our rules like the other puppet Staes, We could not bribe them like Russia, Pakinstan, France and others with money or China with the Olympics. So now we have to teach them a lesson.
    This War is full of Bull Just like the Unelected Leaders who are pushing for it!!
    nuff said
     
  9. macrumors 601

    krossfyter

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    #9

    Einstein also said " Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind"..... whats my point? I dont know... maybe im trying to tie this into this violatile thread abstractly. :D
     
  10. macrumors 68000

    topicolo

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    #10
    All I can say is basically what has been repeated on the airwaves time and again: A US led attack of Iraq may set off the middle east and create more problems for western nations.

    Remember, Osama bin Laden was a US ally until the US attacked Iraq the first time. He went ballistic and decided to kill Americans because of what he perceived (and it may be right too) to be a US caused subjugation of the Iraqi people.

    What will happen if Iraq is attacked again? How would we know if an attack on Iraq would set off another maniac that becomes as bad, if not worse than bin Laden? I don't think anyone is going to enjoy another al-qaeda-like terrorist network.
     
  11. macrumors 68000

    topicolo

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    #11
    If anything, I think the US should be organizing a UN peacekeeper mission to silence the palestinian/israeli conflict. It's painfully obvious that they can't solve their problems by themselves, so the rest of the world should do it for them.
     
  12. macrumors 601

    krossfyter

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    #12
    okay is there anyone on macrumors with a different set of views then the majority on here? like someone on the other side for a change? against the grain?


    lol
     
  13. job
    macrumors 68040

    job

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    #13
    Oh yeah, we all know how effective the United Nations is... :rolleyes:

    How the hell are a bunch of arguing ****head politicans going to stop a militant religious struggle that has existed since recorded history?

    Face it people, the UN is not, repeat, not a ****ing world government. End of story.
     
  14. job
    macrumors 68040

    job

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    #14
    Oh I'm sorry, I think we forgot about the Iraqi "subjugation [sic]" of the Kuwaitis.

    A multinational coalition becomes an "American subjugation."

    Heh.

    That's the first time I've laughed all week.

    edit:

    Oh, do you mean economic sanctions which immediatly affect the general Iraqi populace? Hmmm...lets see...

    Oh, those are UN regulated! Gee Golly Whiz! Imagine that!

    Saddam himself is not affected by the sanctions either. He continues to live as a despotic tyrant while his people starve.
     
  15. job
    macrumors 68040

    job

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    #15
    I have not seen too many educated women being stoned to death on the street. I don't see women who want a divorce being shunned in society and executed as well.

    I can go on my street and still say things about my government that would get me shot in fundamental states.

    I can go into a store and purchase anything I want. Why? Because I can.

    I can walk around my neighborhood without fear of being shot with a 7.62*30 Soviet AK-47 round.

    I don't have to worry about advocating civil rights, the promotion of which would get me a life sentence in a fundamentalist country.

    Remind me again how our way of life is "10x worse."
     
  16. macrumors 65816

    groovebuster

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    #16
    There is one thing I learned over the years... and that is not to discuss with someone who is bittered or too emotional. Those people are blind to see the truth, to get the other side's arguments or to be self-critical.

    I don't really know if you are just emotional or also bittered, but at the end it doesn't really make a difference. But for now I ignore what I learned over the years and will answer anyway.

    You are not willing to look into the mirror... fine. That's your problem, even though it is very sad. You are just the perfect example of someone who is full of himself and doesn't know **** about other people. Your way of life is the only way to happiness and all the other people of the world are just stupid *******s. Your ignorance is your weakness.

    What does that have to do with the subject? Other cultures have other morals and values! In the US in some States sex before the age of 18 is illegal and you go to prison if it comes out. In your country they still have the death penalty. Very civilized... How high was the percentage again of people who got executed even they were not guilty? Do you want me to go on? I guess you got the point already...

    I wouldn't be too sure about that one. I remember times when they were witch-hunting communists in the USA... it's not that long ago. I am pretty sure it also depends on WHAT you say againts your government in which times. Try it it out, I bet you would be surprised! ;)

    You do? OK! Then send your 16 y.o. son to buy a six-pack of beer and cigarettes for you at a gas-station! ... What? Why not? Or show me the coffee shop where you can buy Marihuana legally! Huh? You can't?

    Anything you want, huh? ;)

    :D That was a good one! Last time I checked the USA were the western country with the highest rate of homocide in relation to the number of citizens...

    Maybe you should watch the movie "Bowling for Columbine"? I found it very interesting, even though I knew already most of the stuff...

    The world is really that simple? Thank you for opening my eyes!

    Since we are talking about civil rights... do you know the name Dmitry Sklyarov? Interesting case.

    And thank God that my country has no oil and/or islamic majority. We would be a candidate to be invaded then because of "national interests". How many times the USA violated the civil rights of people in other nations because of those "national interests"? Maybe you should start counting, it will take you a while...

    You really didn't get at all what my statement was about, right? What did I expect...? :rolleyes:

    Even though I don't see any sense to tell you all that, just a few hints:

    - wasting resources
    - destroying environment for profit
    - leading a luxury and wealthy life on the shoulders of the poor countries
    - dictating the world trade with the power of money (poor stay poor, rich become richer)

    I think that covers it pretty much. Everything else would be just a more detailed and refined description.

    You know, the funny part is, that we all do those things every day in our little lifes again and again. We are part of it! Even I do! How many goods we couldn't even buy in a life-time, if the workers would get wages similar to ours. They would be just too expensive. How long the resources of the world would last, if all human beings would live in luxury like you and me? Just a few months! After that there would be nothing left of good old mother earth.
    But some people are not even able to see that correlation. Are you one of them? I just can't believe how self-righteous a lot of peope are...

    We are different, but we are not any better than "the others". We are just in the "lucky" position that we don't harm our neighbour across the street anymore, we do it to people half around the world. And not with guns and arms, but with economical power. Abstract enough to feel superior to the rest of the world and to hide behind the "human rights". It is nice that you live in freedom in your country. Too bad we make millions and billions of people live like animals just to safeguard our way of life, no matter what it costs. And if a country doesn't really "function" we declare it "national interests" and bomb it to stone-age, even though we just brought it into the position before, maybe even betrayed it and it's poeple... for profit!

    The western culture is so fake and hypocrite. Do you really wonder that there are people who hate us for being like that?

    I was very self-critical before, but since 9-11 I really started to understand a lot of stuff and to see it from a different point of view.

    It's not only the others who have to change, it's both sides. If the western governments, especially the USA don't get that we will run into very bad times very soon...

    groovebuster
     
  17. job
    macrumors 68040

    job

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    #17
    Don't tell me what I have seen and experienced. I have lived in Europe and Asia and have encountered the dregs of humanity in the depths of poverty. I have seen squalor in my own country. My "ignorance" is that I don't force my ideals on anyone. In my previous post I stated my opinion and directed a simple question to you. I was not attempting to change the way you see America or the way you live your life or the values you believe in. As long as you don't force me to change my values, I don't care how you live or what you think.

    "My" way is not the only option in life.

    Have you ever lived in a fundamentalist country? Have you experienced the restrictions on your personal freedom.?

    I have.

    So you are advocating that women should not be educated and that they should not be treated as equals? Are we striving for equality and justice for everyone or not? Yes, other "cultures" have their own "morals" but the mass supression of females in a country is not associated with any moral code. Are you then encouraging the slaughter of women attempting to get an education?

    Compare Egypt and Afganistan for a moment. Women have opportunities in Egypt and practice relative freedom; freedom I have personally witnessed. In previous decades Afgani women were stoned for even suggesting such freedom. And yet the two countries are based on the same "morals and values," correct? How can you condone such injustice.

    Hmm...let me remind you of the democratic process. All legislation (i.e. laws) are passed according to the vote of the people. Yes, sex before the age of 18 is illegal, because the majority voted so.

    Are we "10x worse off" just because we can't have kiddie sex?

    Are you saying that we execute innocent people? Heh. If you **** up, you pay the price. You conciously commit a murderous act, you deal with your actions and accept responsibility for what you have done.

    But I digress.

    We are discussing how the life is ten times worse in Western capitalist countries, not the civility of the death penalty.

    In context, in many fundamentalist countries due process of law is dismissed in place of sham show trials. They execute you not because you have murdered anyone, they kill you in cold blood for merely expressing yourself.

    Ah yes, the age old story where anything you say against your country is anti-patriotic and borderline treason. Hmmm....lets see then. Does that mean when I said "**** Bill Clinton" a couple years ago that I should be thrown into jail? I don't think so.

    I can say anything I want in my country about my country without fear of retribution.

    You missed my point. I mentioned that I can buy anything I want because it is a capitalist system. In the context in which I wrote it, I wanted to focus on the lack of free, laizze-faire enterprise in these fundamentalist countries. The limitation of economic freedom and progress was my main point, not the purchase of pot.

    And in regards to that...it's the law, voted and ruled on by the majority. See my other comments on democracy and consensual sex with minors..

    Ironically, Maryland, which has some of the strictest gun laws in the United States also has the highest death rate. Interestingly enough, states with concealed handgun permits have some of the lowest crime rates, capital and otherwise.

    I can and will defend myself. You can call me anything you want, but I maintain that the ability to defend yourself is an inalienable right for all people.

    I'm not trying to change the way you think or the way you live your life. I merely wanted to hear your opinion on why we are worse off, nothing more nothing less.

    The law that he was arrested under " says that if you crack a system meant to protect a copyright work, you go to jail; if you produce software for the purpose of cracking anti-circumvention measures, you go to jail."

    He was arrested because he violated the law. End of story.

    I'm interested to hear your opinion as to how a copyright law violates civil rights.

    Ever heard of Kosovo or Bosnia? Yeah, thought so.

    Only two days drive away from Germany and European governments stood idle while thousands of Muslim refugees were being slaughtered.

    Nothing was done.

    Nothing.

    The American and British coalition had the balls to do what was right. There was no oil, no gold, no real American interests in the region. How did we act out of "national interest?"

    It was only after American airpower did the Europeans come in as "peacekeepers."

    I will give the Germans credit. They did fulfil an excellent role as peacekeepers. But my point still stands. These are just some of the examples in which American intervined, but did not "violate" any "civil rights."

    Ever heard of the IMF?

    Sounds very similar to what Marx said.

    I'd like to hear it. In all honesty, I am very interested in debating these topics/issues further. You are one of the few people here on MR that I can really debate with. ;) :p
     
  18. Moderator emeritus

    Rower_CPU

    Joined:
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    #18
    I'd be surprised if you got a worthwhile response, hitman.

    groovebuster has a history of running out on threads when he gets too much opposition.

    That said, your post was one of the best formed arguments against his formulaic arguments that I've seen in a while. Good work. :)
     
  19. macrumors 68000

    topicolo

    Joined:
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    #19
    The only reason the UN is so ineffective is because of countries like the united states undermining their authority by running around and policing people without multilateral support!

    If the US wants to take initiative in solving the world's problems, why don't they go police the israelis and the palestinians?

    The UN may not be a ****ing world government, but it is better than no international organization at all. Their job wouldn't be so hard if all of their member countries stopped putting their own interests ahead of others all the time.
     
  20. macrumors 68000

    topicolo

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    #20
    What was the point of that Rower? Why don't you say something useful instead of kissing ass like that?
     
  21. Moderator emeritus

    Rower_CPU

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2001
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    San Diego, CA
    #21
    And that was any better? Give me a break.

    I was saying I agreed with his post. Do I need to add another 40 lines to this page to get that point across? No.

    How about this: "I agree."

    Drink another Molson and lighten up, eh?
     
  22. macrumors 65816

    groovebuster

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    #22
    I do...??? Maybe you could show me that history instead of telling fairy-tales? Interesting that the only thing you are able to do is to offend me indirectly with totally made up statements to question my credibility.

    At least I don't need to suck up to someone else instead of having my own opinion... right? ;)

    groovebuster
     
  23. Moderator emeritus

    Rower_CPU

    Joined:
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    #23
    Gladly...

    http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?postid=109284#post109284
    http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?postid=111136#post111136
    http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?postid=112903#post112903
    http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?threadid=12040&perpage=40&pagenumber=2

    Here's the biggie:
    http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?threadid=8083&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

    Now who's telling fairy tales? ;)
     
  24. macrumors P6

    wdlove

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    #24
    The United States is after all the only superpower on Earth! The UN hates us. Majority of members are poor nations that want our stuff. Would you prefer the Kenndy & Clinton approach, extend welfare to the world!
     
  25. macrumors 65816

    groovebuster

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    #25
    And still it doesn't seem that you have learned a lot. That's the impression you give.

    Do I force my ideals to anyone? I don't think so! You asked a question and you got your answer. The interesting part is, that you don't go into detail now to what I said, you just try to pull it onto a higher more abstract level to avoid answering the things I said. Nice try, but it doesn't work...

    I never thought that you wanted to change me, as well as I didn't want to change you. You were asking and you got an answer in an open discussion. Your statement is pretty weak because now you tell "the audience" indirectly that you don't give a **** about the opinionof other people anyway. If all that is true, why you even participate in a discussion like that? You don't care about the opinion of other people? I don't think so. Otherwise you wouldn't be here. You wouldn't even have answered. So what is this all about?

    I am always open to constructive discussions, since that is the only way you can develop. Other opinions are the only reference for your own opinion. Only a fool would regret to listen to them.

    Then don't talk and act like it. Your tone is agressive and self-righteous.

    Now you should give me a friggin' break!!! You ask that a german? You are kiddin' right?

    So what? That makes you THE reference for anything on that subject? First, you don't know me and my background. Second, wisdom has nothing to do with the environmental conditions you lived in for a while. I don't even want to know why, where and how long you lived there, because it counts exactly nothing for that matter. It is narrow-minded to only accept opinions from people "who have been there"! Do I have to be a drug addict, before I can tell you that heroine is bad for you and your health? Do I have to be a killer before I can make a statement that using firearms is bad? What kind of logic is that?

    Now you are twisting my words... is that the only way out you can see now? I am really disappointed! In no word I advocated anything of the things mentioned above. Reread what I said before and try again.

    Show me exactly where I condoned it? Don't put words into my mouth. It's such a poor technique and I expected more from you.

    That was not the subject. The subject was the morals. But since you mention it... The vote of the people is just a mirror of the morals of the people. So what? For a lot of people in other countries that is prude and prison an exaggerated punishment for something like that...

    You are really trying to be funny, huh? So far it didn't work... maybe you could at least start not to rip out my statements out of the context if you are are not able to understand them.

    Yes, you do! There are official statistics about how many people turned out to be innocent after they were executed during the last years. Just google a little bit and then come back to tell me what you found. Would you consider that "collateral dammage"?

    I also believe that executing a person is wrong. No person has the right to take the life of someone else, also not as a punishment for committed crimes. Beside the risk that the person is wrongly accused, it is illogical also from the point of human rights. Human rights apply to everyone, no matter what the person did or not! They are universal, otherwise they are worth nothing. The moment I take an eye for an eye I put myself on the same level as the person who committed the crime. I don't feel like going too much into detail since I am pretty sure you know all the arguments by heart... you just don't accept them as valid.

    A civilized society must have other methods to deal with criminals. An eye for an eye is stone-age!

    And by the way... did I mention that the USA have the highest homocide rate of all western countries? Death penalty doesn't seem to work as a determent...

    That's correct... ;)
     

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