Open letter to Apple: What I need to stay with Apple in 2K4

[rainman::|:|]

buy a goddamned powermac already. or leave the platform. apple has better things to do than cater to a single brat that *needs* features that NO one needs, and wants a ****load of pro features in a consumer machine. you're cheap, you're obnoxious, and you're wrong.

pnw

 

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by Taft
This is such a sh***y attitude. Its almost as good as saying, "Don't like the US's current policies? Move to France!" As if running away from the things you love rather than trying to fix them is the best solution.

Why not try to inspire change in the company who makes you favorite computer? I think that's what this letter was all about. Its not about some idle threat or deep down hatred of Apple, its about trying to make Apple a better company. Its about wanting your favorite computer to be even better. Its about holding Apple to higher standards. Its about trying to inspire change for the good of a company and its users.

"Fine! Go to Wintel!" is not an acceptable reply to such aspirations.

Taft

Actually Taft,

The title of Morgan's post is "What I need to stay with Apple in 2K4". If he's honest about needing these things to stay with Apple and has the integrity to stick to his guns, then he will be running a Wintel Box in 2K4 as these requests are not going to happen. I didn't tell him to go to Windoze, but was merely pointing out the finality of such a pronouncement.

Simple as that. I'm a sympathizer...

A little edgy today? - j

 

[MorganX]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
pro features in a consumer machine. you're cheap, you're obnoxious, and you're wrong.
pnw

Pro features in a consumer machine. I laugh at that. And if Apple can't offer me what I want in 2k4, I will go back.

By the way, the substance, construction, and content of your post has really displayed your high intellect. Thanks for sharing it.

 

[MorganX]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
as these requests are not going to happen.

Now I'm really starting to worry about you guys. Exactly what part of that request do you believe is simply "not going to happen?"

FW800? pfft. Do you think Apple will put a 970 in the high end iMac without it?

They're already working on iWorks.

Do you think they'll put a Geforce4 MX with a 970?

In the face of countless sub $100 DVD authoring apps that can compress quite good video onto a 2hr DVD on the Intel platform do you think iDVD will continue to be meaningful in its current state?

The upgradeability options are optional. Realizing the financial state Apple's in I would be willing to pay 20% over the top.

I'm not sure that those who are having mild seizures even know what they're upset about. That I won't buy "another" iMac without the features or equivalent I mentioned? I guess that's too bad. You buy can buy the one I won't. And the one 95% of buyers won't.

I will have what I want, whether it comes from Apple or someone else. I would like it to come from Apple. If it doesn't it doesn't. I only get irate and idignant like you guys over women.

 

[jayscheuerle]

Re: Open letter to Apple: What I need to stay with Apple in 2K4

Not gonna happen:

64-128MB DDR Video RAM - (doubtful for iMac)

FW800 (stick with 400 in iMac)

USB 2.0 (Steve's ego)

PPC 970 or performance equivalent to P4 2.4Mhz across the board (socketed for upgradability) Stick with a G4 in iMac.

512MB DDR Standard (256, Apple is always under RAM'd)

266MHz FSB minimum (Beyond 266MHz I have only seen minimal gains except in 3D Games. I'll take more, but 266Mhz is minimum) (Apple doesn't even know what one of these does)

------------------------------

It's not that Apple can't do these things, but they want to differentiate between Pro and Consumer. Personally, I don't see why the iMac isn't considered a high-end machine, but this isn't my business.

I'm hoping Apple comes out with something great (and practical) before my beige box dies because I can't afford a new mac tower and I have no use for an "all in one" model. The "Dark Side" is often just the "Inexpensive Side" or the "Practical Side"... - j

 

[macktheknife]

I really don't understand why everyone is giving MorganX such an awful time. I've been looking through a few similiar comments on MR, and the mean-spirited vitriol that spews from these threads is quite amazing. Anyone who criticizes Apple, apparently, is a some clueless troll who just doesn't get it. As a recent switcher, I cannot understand why so many Macusers love Apple and Macs so unconditionally.

 

[jxyama]

I think many of us Mac users get very antsy over a post like this for one reason: it makes the poster sounds like he/she is doing Apple an favor by favoring/using/purchasing their products.

"I am an Apple user and I like Apple, but if they don't do this and that, I'm gonna go buy a PC that is more capable and half the price." A message like this is posted every once in a while... Because he/she thinks he/she is doing Apple a favor, he/she feels entitled to demand something in return for their "favors." I think this is the reason many people get ticked off with a post like this.

"If you want to leave, leave then."

Apple is a company, a profit driven company, I am sure it's trying to figure out ways to improve their products and offer good stuff instead of sitting on past laurels. I think I like the idea of discussing wishlists to see what different people want but I think there might have been a better way post it without the demanding and "reverse-switching" threat tone.

 

[MorganX]

Re: Re: Open letter to Apple: What I need to stay with Apple in 2K4

>>64-128MB DDR Video RAM - (doubtful for iMac)

- The iMac already has 64MB DDR video memory. I only included the memory spec because I don't put it past Apple to up the GPU and try to squeeze profit clipping the video RAM.

>>FW800 (stick with 400 in iMac), Stick with a G4 in iMac.

Why? Why cripple it if you can sell it at a profit? To keep a consumer and pro machine? That has little purpose. You have cheap and expensive machines. The expensive machine should have as much as you can put in it and sell for profit at a resonable price. Not too many people want PowerMacs, period. So keep selling what people want. Not was you want them to want.

>>USB 2.0 (Steve's ego)

Do you think this is OK, normal for a business? If not, why just say fuggetabout it? SJ goes to the bathroom just like I do. His may be gold-plated but that doesn't stop the stink.

>>512MB DDR Standard (256, Apple is always under RAM'd)

So lets just resign ourselves that despite the low cost of RAM, Apple's always going to be uner RAM'd which hurts potential sales and has a delterious affect on price/performance.

>>266MHz FSB minimum (Apple doesn't even know what one of these does)

Well lets you and I let 'em know by telling them if you want me to buy another <insert mac model here> I want it.

>>It's not that Apple can't do these things, but they want to differentiate between Pro and Consumer.

This Pro/Consumer thingy needs to go away. And I think it will. When the 970 doesn't do much for generating new PowerMac sales, maybe Apple will finally get it. The sooner the better, I will, and I'm sure many more would pay a premium for a tricked out iMac. But I have not interest in even a free PowerMac.

 

[jayscheuerle]

Re: Re: Re: Open letter to Apple: What I need to stay with Apple in 2K4

Originally posted by MorganX
I'm sure many more would pay a premium for a tricked out iMac. But I have not interest in even a free PowerMac.

Interesting!

I'd happily pay for a bare-bones tower, but have no interest in an iMac.

 

[lmalave]

Originally posted by paulwhannel
buy a goddamned powermac already. or leave the platform. apple has better things to do than cater to a single brat that *needs* features that NO one needs, and wants a ****load of pro features in a consumer machine. you're cheap, you're obnoxious, and you're wrong.

pnw

The problem is that the iMacs are not consumer-priced. For a premium price, Macs should deliver premium performance. There used to be a time when Macs had the best operating system *and* the fastest hardware. Now, I think Apple is getting there with the 970, and I didn't find Morgan's post to be unreasonable. Everything he requested is quite reasonable to expect in an $1800 iMac by the end of next year.


I really don't understand all the reactions on this board. I bought my iBook and iPod because I thought the were the best values on the market for what I was looking for. When it comes time to buy a new desktop, I will consider Apple if it can lower the price or raise its performance/features to the point where I think they are a good value. They just haven't done it for me yet with the eMacs, iMacs, or PowerMacs.

 

[Taft]

Originally posted by jayscheuerle

A little edgy today? - j

Actually, a little sick of Mac-zealots today.

Way too many people are baching this guy for posting a *relatively* realistic set of expectations and requirements. You made a guess at which of these features will make it into the next iMac and basically called Morgan wrong, but you have no idea, do you? You could be very, very wrong.

And none of this changes the basic intent of the original post.

I'm a huge fan of Apple, but I occasionally get sick of people trumpeting their greatness without admitting their shortfalls. While you might not be one of those people, you are certainly one of those being unnecessarily harsh here.

Taft

 

[patrick0brien]

Originally posted by macktheknife
I cannot understand why so many Macusers love Apple and Macs so unconditionally.

-macktheknife

This is one of the more apt questions I've seen dicussed in recent times. And there are many different theories flying about as to why this appears to be true.

I for one, love Apple for it's products and always watch what they're about to pull out of their hats (via Uncle Steve of course).

As a longtime Apple user starting with an Apple ][ plus way back in the day, it's been an interesting road.

I personally don't love Apple unconditionally however, but I do find myself on their side a lot. They're vastly misunderstood by the rest of the world, and as (by my guess) most Mac users are Wintel users as well. And having feet in both camps, they have the perspective and experience to debate this things.

Some Mac users take very personally anything they can view as an attack on Apple, and that's part-and-parcel to the fact that Apple customers are better defined as Fans, rather that simple consumers. Additionally, Mac users consider their machine to be a friend and not just a tool, and by extension, Apple, not just any other company.

So by default, Apple users are a loyal bunch, and when their loyalties are questioned, or their "friend" doubted, there will invariable be an uprising of sorts.

This passion can be negative at times, but all-in-all, I enjoy being a part of it.

Did that help?

 

[jayscheuerle]

Originally posted by Taft
You made a guess at which of these features will make it into the next iMac and basically called Morgan wrong, but you have no idea, do you? You could be very, very wrong.

-and nothing would make me happier.

 

[MorganX]

Originally posted by jxyama
I think many of us Mac users get very antsy over a post like this for one reason: it makes the poster sounds like he/she is doing Apple an favor by favoring/using/purchasing their products.

I do feel that way. I do McDonalds a favor when I go to them over Burger King. You're doing them a favor too.

I believe every customer, in a competitive society/market should feel that way.

 

[chewbaccapits]

"I knew the iMac would be obsolete by the end of the year because it was close to that when I bought it. But I bought it to support Apple and becuase I tire of the Wintel world..."
Morgan x


I always ask this when people complain that their system is obsolete...But what do you use your computer for? Obsolete? Isn't your processor twice as fast as mine? I have a powermac G4 450 sawtooth...One of the first generation G4 computers and it still woops ass. I use FCP 3,DVDSP, Flash MX and your other various adobe products. How can you claim that?

 

[MorganX]

Originally posted by lmalave
Everything he requested is quite reasonable to expect in an $1800 iMac by the end of next year.

Woohoo! I'll take two, overnight in fact.

I'd be whistling dixie if they could pack all that for $1800. I'm thinking $2200. $2400 if GPU is upgradeable. $2700 if GPU & CPU were upgradeable.

 

[bertagert]

Ok Morgan - a few things first.

1. Your letter would get tossed in the trash can for the simple reasons that you sound like your 15 years old and hangout on mac rumor sites. For example: FP iMac (professional letter would read Flat Panel or even current iMac), BS (thats professional), 17" or 19" (maybe a 19" screen isn't possible so don't jump to conclusions on things that don't even exist).

2. You said you'd pay 20% for certain upgradable parts. If you're willing to spend extra, get a power mac. It will cost the same by the time you get done with it.

3. The Office software thing. Microsoft makes it and it works just fine. If not, you can use a few others. Why does Apple have to make it?

4. you don't need firewire 800. Even if you could buy a camera or what ever that suppots fw800, your imac wasn't designed for those needs. It will happen eventually but not in 2004.

5. The bus thing. Well Apple depends on others companies for processors and since the bus and processor have to work together, it will be out of Apples hands for right now.

6. Bluetooth mouse keyboard. Logitech makes them (although radio not blue tooth) and they work fine. The mouse actually has 4 buttons and a scroll wheel to boot.

So lets say your wish list doesn't come true. Are you going to jump ship and go with Dell, Gateway, Micron? When you write your letter to them, how are you going to ask them to make anything on your list? They don't make mice, keyboards, motherboards, office software, or Firewire built in (on a compariable consumer machine) especially fw800. So will you come back to mac then?

You might say you could get half the stuff at a cheaper cost when you make the switch. Yes and no on that. Apple has created a experince with there computers and software. When people see a Apple computer/ipod/OSX, they are in awe. How come no one does that around a Dell or HP machine?

Don't bother sending your letter in without the neccessary corrections.

 

[matthew24]

Stay United

If it comes to contents Morgan has some very good points. I am a switcher myself and am a very satisfied user, nevertheless Apple should steal some nice features back from the windows platform, but seems to be too stubborn/proud to do so; Two button mouse, the home/end (begin of line) cntr/alt function keys, (Windows keyboard shortcuts handling is quicker/ more clear), USB 2.0. Apple is looking for switchers, that's why I think they should focus a little bit more about the most populair/best features of windows. (Even if it ain't many.)
But let's be honest Apple has been working very hard and if you have been following their innovations and rumors we don't need to worry, but we should have some patience.

If you do have some reservations, there is no reasonable alternative (I have seen it), and if we drop Apple way to quick, Apple could be too easy sabotaged by the monopoly power of MS. Our support of Apple is still critical, special now while Apple is recovering of the neglectance of innovations at Motorola.

 

[Fukui]

One of the few constructive posts...

DVD+R/RW (You only hurt customers and potential customers when you don't know when to give it up.)

Actually, now they use the sony drives which do support all the "standards" you can use toast to access them all, OS X only supports DVD-R I believe..something like that...

As to your wish list, I agree. I am a former wintel user myself, and I so wish I could buy an iMac to replace my Cube, but they just aren't high-end enough, and I don't want some noisy powermac either, thats why I have a G4 cube <30db baby!!

I would really like it if they supported those replaceable notebook GPUs, I am not sure about the CPU being upgradeable on such a small system, but that would be nice.

I know apple has a powermac feedback page but they don't have one for the iMac.
If you really want their attention though, don't post your request here, send it as as a "Switchers story" on their switch page, you can be guaranteed that they want to know what PC users *really* think about their products. It can only benefit them.

As for becoming obsolete, if the definition of obsolete is "not as fast as the others in the same price range" yea the iMac is sorta obsolete, but usually it means "useless" like my old PII...

Peace.

 

[iJon]

morgan, i would really be interested in the reasons why you want each of these things. if you can just be specific about your reasons why these are a must and what you plan on using them for.

iJon

 

[MorganX]

Originally posted by chewbaccapits
"I knew the iMac would be obsolete by the end of the year because it was close to that when I bought it. But I bought it to support Apple and becuase I tire of the Wintel world..."
Morgan x


I always ask this when people complain that their system is obselete...But what do you use your computer for? Obsolete? Isn't your processor twice as fast as mine? I have a powermac G4 450 sawtooth...One of the first generation G4 computers and it still woops ass. I use FCP 3,DVDSP, Flash MX and your other various adobe products. How can you claim that?

Maybe obsolete was a little harsh. Heading toward obsolescence? I had to make a trade, what I wanted in the iMac, plus getting away from Wintel, or a while at least, and doing all the fun stuff I've been missing.

Now, FCP and DVDSP. Going by the performance of iMove and iDVD I can't imagine that on a G4 450 given my performance on a 1GHz G4.

It could be ethnocentrism. I'm coming from a 2Ghz PIV overclocked to 2.4Ghz with 333Mhz DDR. It ate video conversion for lunch.

edit: and it cost me about $850 to build.

 

[MorganX]

Re: One of the few constructive posts...

Originally posted by Fukui

Actually, now they use the sony drives which do support all the "standards" you can use toast to access them all, OS X only supports DVD-R I believe..something like that...

I received my iMac after 2/14/03 and it has the Pioneer DVD-R. Wasn't lucky enough to get one of the Sonys.

 

[Fukui]

1. Your letter would get tossed in the trash can for the simple reasons that you sound like your 15 years old and hangout on mac rumor sites. For example: FP iMac (professional letter would read Flat Panel or even current iMac), BS (thats professional), 17" or 19" (maybe a 19" screen isn't possible so don't jump to conclusions on things that don't even exist).

He's just requesting what he wants.
Big deal.

2. You said you'd pay 20% for certain upgradable parts. If you're willing to spend extra, get a power mac. It will cost the same by the time you get done with it.

Too noisy, not as elegant as a iMac.
Wayyyy overpriced (1Ghz and a Geforce4 MX should not be $1400)

3. The Office software thing. Microsoft makes it and it works just fine. If not, you can use a few others. Why does Apple have to make it?

Because as long as apple has to bow down to MS they are forever putting their chances over a smoking fire. MS is like the mafia to apple, its better to move out of the neighborhood before they try to bribe/extort/kill them again (which they have done).

4. you don't need firewire 800. Even if you could buy a camera or what ever that supports fw800, your imac wasn't designed for those needs. It will happen eventually but not in 2004.

Thankyou for telling us what we need and don't need, how do you know??I bet by 2004 iMacs WILL have fw800. BTW the customer is always right.

5. The bus thing. Well Apple depends on others companies for processors and since the bus and processor have to work together, it will be out of Apples hands for right now.

Not for long.

6. Bluetooth mouse keyboard. Logitech makes them (although radio not blue tooth) and they work fine. The mouse actually has 4 buttons and a scroll wheel to boot.

Again, we already pay the premium for apple's hardware, on a high-end 1800 dollar computer, the least they could include would be a BT mouse.

 

[Fukui]

I received my iMac after 2/14/03 and it has the Pioneer DVD-R. Wasn't lucky enough to get one of the Sonys.

Yea, you can replace it if you really need it, its just a little "messy" if you know what I mean.

 

[bertagert]

Again:

He's just requesting what he wants.

He's not doing it in a professional/elegant way. He sounds like he just came from the rumor boards instead of through a educated thought out process.

Too noisy, not as elegant as a iMac.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder of course. As for the noise, it doesn't bother me on my 1.25 gig.

Because as long as apple has to bow down to MS they are forever putting their chances over a smoking fire. MS is like the mafia to apple, its better to move out of the neighborhood before they try to bribe/extort/kill them again (which they have done).

Again, that wasn't his point. He's telling apple to make it. Yet, Dell, HP, etc. don't make a office product.

Thankyou for telling us what we need and don't need, how do you know??I bet by 2004 iMacs WILL have fw800. BTW the customer is always right.

Its not me telling you what you want. Its what your buying thats telling you what your getting. Your buying a consumer machine but asking for pro performance. Nothing wrong with that . Your just not going to get it for awhile.

BTW, the customer isn't always right. They just don't understand or didn't read the owners manual half the time. Just because you demand a feature doesn't mean the company has to bow to you. Thats why they're in business (because if the made every thing you wanted at your price they would go broke!)

Not for long.

yes for the long haul. Apple will still be dependent on moto or ibm or whom ever to make the processor. So nothing there will change.

Again, we already pay the premium for apple's hardware, on a high-end 1800 dollar computer, the least they could include would be a BT mouse.

You pay a preium for dell/Gateway/etc. yet they don't make bluetooth mice. They don't even make mice.