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Eniregnat

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Jan 22, 2003
1,841
1
In your head.
Opening a can of Pixels- Dead Pixels

I have bounced around the boards for at least half a decade. Every time Apple releases a new flat panel model (desktop or portable) there are questions about pixels, screen clarity, intrinsic faults, etc. The people that have problems are vocal and those that are happy rarely chime in. I haven't seen any new Macs with dead pixels yet, but I am sure that it does happen. When I got my revB iTang, there were three partially dead pixels. Strangely, I grew used to them. When I sent my iBook in for repair (bad handle), Apple fixed it for free; I didn't even ask. Their stance is strong. A threshold of dead pixels has to be met. I think it somewhere in the order of 27 single instance failures, or 5 completely dead pixels in a row. (This coming from a friend that once worked at Apple.) I was told that a lot of companies have similar rules. Check out Apple's technical notes for the older PBs. There, they state that to keep the computers affordable, that they allow for a certain # of failed transistors. (I am looking for a link.)

A lot of people are fear dead pixels on the 17'' iMac, most before they buy or receive one.

Lets crunch the numbers.


Given:
17 iMac 1440*900 resolution = 1,296,000 pixels.
and an arbitrary 5 dead pixels
and 'dead' = all transistors for a single pixel are not working
and that I don't care about sig. figs. or showing the work

case 1, simple RGB, 3 transistors (1 for each color)
# transistors Pixels *3 = 3,888,000 transistors
5 dead pixels * 3 transistors/ # transistors * 100 ≈ 0.0003858%

case 2, simple 3 transistor model (see above)
25 single or stacked transistors failed
25 bad transistors/ total # of transistors *100 ≈ 0.000643 %


Somebody told me that there were between 5 to 7 transistors per pixel. Given the former, that's 6,480,000 transistors per point. This isn't including all of the processing for the images. WOW!, those are some big numbers.

I am not belittling the fact that a single pixel out or that is improperly colored is distracting- it's down right annoying. Nobody wants something that is defective from the start, but how often does it really happen.

Chime in as you wish, about numbers or what ever is related to this thread.
How many dead pixels have you experienced on your new Macs?
Which models do you own iMac, PB, iBook, etc..?
Is there a lot of this fear board/rumor generated, or is it a common occurrence?
 

RBMaraman

macrumors 65816
Jul 25, 2002
1,228
39
New Albany, IN
I have both an iBook and a 17" iMac. I got the iBook in August of 2001, and it has a crystal clear screen with no dead or near-dead pixels. I got the 17" iMac in December of 2002, and it also has a perfect screen. I have a friend who got an iBook in December of 2001, and he has a perfect screen. I have another friend who got an iBook in July of 2001 and has a perfect screen. I have another friend who got a Power Mac and 17" display in June of 2002, and the screen is perfect. I can honestly say, I know about 75 mac users, some of whom own multiple models, and no one has ever experienced a problem with their screens.
 

Eniregnat

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Jan 22, 2003
1,841
1
In your head.
This is my point. Look at the number of posts about fear of dead pixels to the number of actual people that have experienced dead pixels, and it looks as though the "rumor" mill has blow it out of perspective. I could be wrong.
 

Bear

macrumors G3
Jul 23, 2002
8,088
5
Sol III - Terra
Originally posted by Eniregnat
This is my point. Look at the number of posts about fear of dead pixels to the number of actual people that have experienced dead pixels, and it looks as though the "rumor" mill has blow it out of perspective. I could be wrong.
You could be wrong, but I highly doubt it.

My machines are fine. My friends machines are fine. A lot of things get blown out of proportion by how loudly someone complains and then their complaints get echoed.
 

MorganX

macrumors 6502a
Jan 20, 2003
853
0
Midwest
Originally posted by Eniregnat
This is my point. Look at the number of posts about fear of dead pixels to the number of actual people that have experienced dead pixels, and it looks as though the "rumor" mill has blow it out of perspective. I could be wrong.

What about fuzzy fonts? I mean, there's a whole lot of people on a whole lot of boards including Apple.com complaining. And they are mostly long time Mac users. This is disturbing, moreso because I'm considering buying the iMac which is a non-upgradeable what you see is what you're stuck with purchase.

There are no fuzz fonts on a PC at native resolution. It's not something I can "get used to" which seems to be the common response from many Mac users.

If Apple said, yes, there's a problem. Will be fixed ASAP in a service pack, or whatever the equivalent is, it would be end of story. But I can find no response from Apple and loyal customers complaining.

Remember, I "want" an iMac. But I'm not accepting dysfunctional equipment or OS' at these prices. I'm just looking for answers and experiences to help me make a decision.

And I blame Microsoft for my current conundrum. If the Windows UI was more modern and there was an equivalent to the iApps, I would just spend half as much on a 17" widescreen and dual XEONS. On Wintel you have the bomb hardware and sucky consumer OS and on Apple you have sucky hardware and bomb (though buggy) OS and apps.

Maybe I should wait until MS copies Apple, or Apple goes with Marklar.
 

iGav

macrumors G3
Mar 9, 2002
9,025
1
My experiences...

PowerBook G3 = 1 stuck pixel

PowerBook G4 500MHz = 1 dead pixel 2 stuck ones, within six months this turned into a 'shotgun' cluster of conservatively 50+ stuck pixels in the centre of the screen..... although it could have been more, also annoying screen flicker towards the bottom left of the screen.

Replacement screen for above G4, 1 dead pixel, 2 stuck pixels.

PowerBook G4 1GHz Decemeber, 1 Stuck Pixel in centre of screen, but faulty graphics card.

Replacement PowerBook G4 sent late December, no stuck or dead pixels, but delivered with a 1.5 inch scratch on the lid, a lid hook that didn't always catch, and massive screen interference.

Replacement PowerBook G4 sent January, no scratches, no dead or stuck pixels..... and touch wood, fingers crossed this one has been fine.
 

Bear

macrumors G3
Jul 23, 2002
8,088
5
Sol III - Terra
Originally posted by MorganX


What about fuzzy fonts? I mean, there's a whole lot of people on a whole lot of boards including Apple.com complaining. And they are mostly long time Mac users. This is disturbing, moreso because I'm considering buying the iMac which is a non-upgradeable what you see is what you're stuck with purchase.
Fuzzy fonts are a seperate issue which you already started a thread on. However to answer your question again - I have not seen fuzzy font problems on my iMac G4 FP. Nor has my friends seen such on theirs.
 

RBMaraman

macrumors 65816
Jul 25, 2002
1,228
39
New Albany, IN
Originally posted by Bear

I have not seen fuzzy font problems on my iMac G4 FP. Nor has my friends seen such on theirs.

Bear is right on this one. My 17" iMac has very smooth and clear fonts. I have yet to see a 17" iMac with font problems.

I did notice that people that were complaining about fuzzy fonts said that the 10.2.4 update had fixed their problems. So, if there is some kind of issue, Apple is working on it. But, I think this is another case of one issue blown way out of proportion.

(P.S. - I know of some Mac haters who use the Apple forums to blow topics out of proportion, trying to convince people PC's are better. Do fall for their bullsh**!)
 

MorganX

macrumors 6502a
Jan 20, 2003
853
0
Midwest
Originally posted by RBMaraman

(P.S. - I know of some Mac haters who use the Apple forums to blow topics out of proportion, trying to convince people PC's are better. Do fall for their bullsh**!)

Actually, at first I didn't believe this. However, after the speed bumped iMacs were released it was obvious these were anti-apple folks.

I did go to apple to verify the font problem, but dead pixel society may be blown out of proportion.

I do think many people's poor opinion of Apple Customer service may be based on Apple arrogance. If you buy an Apple, you're locked in. Can't get satisfaction anywhere else. In the PC world if a vendor doesn't give you the satisfaction you feel you deserve, you just buy from someone else next time.

If Apple does get a lot fo switchers, it will be interesting to see how these divergent expectations play out.

Wish me luck!
 

Eniregnat

macrumors 68000
Original poster
Jan 22, 2003
1,841
1
In your head.
Back to the topic.

Just to keep on topic- Pixels. Fuzzy fonts are ok, but at least add some personal evidence.

Dead- every layer, all switching to a single pixel
Bad- one or more transistors that do not gate properly
Stuck - the same as bad
Hey if anybody has had the massage technique work to "unstick" pixels, then not that too.
 

GeeYouEye

macrumors 68000
Dec 9, 2001
1,669
10
State of Denial
In the past 5 or so years, of my computers as well as clients, I've never seen a single dead pixel, or any number up to about 500 (the 500 pixels resulted from a cracked screen) I don't think it's a big issue.
 

frescies

macrumors regular
Dec 9, 2002
225
0
Los Angeles, CA
Pixels....

I have noticed that the bottom corners of my imac 17" have a slightly brighter appearance... though I am an excessive worry wort and this could just be due to a funny angle of my head...

However, there is one thing that bothers me (and I'm gonna take it in for this one). I'm a Myth fan. I played the 3rd installment of this game on my imac for a total of about 20 hours (no more than that and spread out over about 15 or so actual playing sessions). I played this game at a VERY moderate brightness with a very moderate gamma level. Whilst playing myth 2 (which I do on a frequent basis) I happened to look down on the screen at a very sharp angle, almost parallel to the screen itself, during the map load screen which is almost completely black. I noticed a faint, but still obvious, impression in the screen which mimicked the in game buttons and title screen backround from myth 3 on my screen! I could almost read the text on the buttons! I was very annoyed. I don't know why I should have a burn in the screen after barely playing the game but I do and it bothers me.

I think I will have to send it in :(
 

Jimong5

macrumors 6502
Jul 22, 2002
296
0
My apple Pixel dealings:
Pismo = 1 semi stuck pixel that sometimes works.
17" studio display = none. everythings perfect with it.
 

Kyle

macrumors member
Dec 27, 2002
70
0
I have an iBook that I purchased in October 2002. One dead pixel, and a scratch caused by another human being. :)mad: )
 

4409723

Suspended
Jun 22, 2001
2,221
0
Originally posted by iGAV
My experiences...

PowerBook G3 = 1 stuck pixel

PowerBook G4 500MHz = 1 dead pixel 2 stuck ones, within six months this turned into a 'shotgun' cluster of conservatively 50+ stuck pixels in the centre of the screen..... although it could have been more, also annoying screen flicker towards the bottom left of the screen.

Replacement screen for above G4, 1 dead pixel, 2 stuck pixels.

PowerBook G4 1GHz Decemeber, 1 Stuck Pixel in centre of screen, but faulty graphics card.

Replacement PowerBook G4 sent late December, no stuck or dead pixels, but delivered with a 1.5 inch scratch on the lid, a lid hook that didn't always catch, and massive screen interference.

Replacement PowerBook G4 sent January, no scratches, no dead or stuck pixels..... and touch wood, fingers crossed this one has been fine.

and people wonder why the prices are so high! We have customers like this!:p :D OI! Do you think we could meet at, say, Waterloo and you hand me one of your old powerbooks you have lying around?

**just kidding, I hate the way Apple take away faulty products**
 

4409723

Suspended
Jun 22, 2001
2,221
0
Re: Pixels....

Originally posted by frescies
I have noticed that the bottom corners of my imac 17" have a slightly brighter appearance... though I am an excessive worry wort and this could just be due to a funny angle of my head...

However, there is one thing that bothers me (and I'm gonna take it in for this one). I'm a Myth fan. I played the 3rd installment of this game on my imac for a total of about 20 hours (no more than that and spread out over about 15 or so actual playing sessions). I played this game at a VERY moderate brightness with a very moderate gamma level. Whilst playing myth 2 (which I do on a frequent basis) I happened to look down on the screen at a very sharp angle, almost parallel to the screen itself, during the map load screen which is almost completely black. I noticed a faint, but still obvious, impression in the screen which mimicked the in game buttons and title screen backround from myth 3 on my screen! I could almost read the text on the buttons! I was very annoyed. I don't know why I should have a burn in the screen after barely playing the game but I do and it bothers me.

I think I will have to send it in :(

I remembering reading Apple's advice on this, they said, "Turn off the screen and leave the computer off for 1/2 the time the that image was displayed". Don't know if it works, but worth a try.
 

4409723

Suspended
Jun 22, 2001
2,221
0
Originally posted by RndmAxess
22" Cinema Display:

One stuck pixel.
Two dead pixels.

G4/500 TiBook (now sold):

Zero stuck pixels.
Zero dead pixels.

In all honesty I was fairly mad after paying $2500 for the Cinema Display to have the pixel failures not be enough for a warranty fix.

If Apple wants to sell me an LCD panel with bad pixels as "B" stock that's OK. Otherwise I want zero bad pixels.

Doesn't FORMAC have a ZERO bad pixel policy? I'll be looking at those for my next purchase.

I think they allowed 4-5 and Apple allowed 7 or something around that, however, I have a Formac right here and there are no dead pixels.
 

Kid Red

macrumors 65816
Dec 14, 2001
1,428
157
Originally posted by Eniregnat
This is my point. Look at the number of posts about fear of dead pixels to the number of actual people that have experienced dead pixels, and it looks as though the "rumor" mill has blow it out of perspective. I could be wrong.

I just sold my Cinema Display, it had a few dead pixels in a square shape. I bought a 23" HD yesterday to replace it, it had 2 dead pixels so i returned it for a new one with none.

Yes, i was very fearful of the dead pixel because i had lived with some for a few months and it was very annoying. I asked every salesmen about the return policy and even bought the replacement policy with Comp USA just in case. Low and behold I had 2 when I got home.

There's fear, but it's brewed from fact.
 

Kid Red

macrumors 65816
Dec 14, 2001
1,428
157
Originally posted by RndmAxess
22" Cinema Display:

One stuck pixel.
Two dead pixels.

G4/500 TiBook (now sold):

Zero stuck pixels.
Zero dead pixels.

In all honesty I was fairly mad after paying $2500 for the Cinema Display to have the pixel failures not be enough for a warranty fix.

If Apple wants to sell me an LCD panel with bad pixels as "B" stock that's OK. Otherwise I want zero bad pixels.

Doesn't FORMAC have a ZERO bad pixel policy? I'll be looking at those for my next purchase.

Formac has a 2 dead pixel policy IIRC. Just buy from CompUSA and have them pull it out of the box and hook it up, they did for me.
 

altair

macrumors regular
Nov 22, 2002
221
0
Seattle, WA
Originally posted by MorganX


And I blame Microsoft for my current conundrum. If the Windows UI was more modern and there was an equivalent to the iApps, I would just spend half as much on a 17" widescreen and dual XEONS. On Wintel you have the bomb hardware and sucky consumer OS and on Apple you have sucky hardware and bomb (though buggy) OS and apps.
.

I can't believe no one has said anything about this assertion. 'on apple you have sucky hardware' ? Are you serious? The hardware Apple sells is soooooo much better than wintel hardware. And a buggy OS, I think this is another thing that is being blown out of proportion by the rumor mill. This is the greatest OS ever, it is amazing.

Just felt I had to stick up for Apple here, I love their hardware return policy. If its broke you send it back and they give you a new one. Wonderfull.

~altair
 

iGav

macrumors G3
Mar 9, 2002
9,025
1
Originally posted by W-_-W


and people wonder why the prices are so high! We have customers like this!:p :D OI! Do you think we could meet at, say, Waterloo and you hand me one of your old powerbooks you have lying around?

**just kidding, I hate the way Apple take away faulty products**

heh heh..... the Pismo was a company machine, so I didn't really care.... but each TiBook I've had, has had some kind of screen fault, except this latest one, that fingers crossed, seems as perfect as I'm likely to get....

I was more than annoyed though that it took Apple 2 attempts to send me a TiBook that didn't have some kind of glaring fault.... 1.5 inch scratch on the lid.... jeez..... I think they could do with tightening up their QA process...... it must have cost Apple a small fortune in shipping....

Although the cool thing is, because they didn't send me a "proper" machine until mid Jan..... they refunded the price difference between when I originally ordered (November) and the cost after the price reduction after MWSF......

Made me smile....!! :D
 
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